Of you who are persuaded to affirm "Trae Young has a Steve Nash kind-of career ahead of him"... what's persuaded you?

[REHawksFan]

So, wait... after almost a full day, and no one else affirms that assertion? C'mon give us fence sitters something more. Really, no offense, but I think I could make as good or better an argument than what's here.

I'm sorry if my opinion doesn't meet your high standard for intellectual discussion. There's a reason I said this felt like a trap and here we are. I think I'll politely bow out at this point. I'm no longer interested in discussions with you. Good day.

[fuzzy1]

William Shakesman once said "brevity is the soul of wit," so I'll keep this brief: he's already a top 5ish passer in the league by eye test and statistically. Everything else is gravy.

Sent from my SM-J700T using RealGM mobile app

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

I'm not comfortable with the criteria of "top 5 MVP finishes" because MVP is too heavily driven by media narratives and I just don't accept the "well come up with a better one then" response. Basketball or sports in general are just too nuanced to force only an objective measure that could withstand thesis level scrutiny into a message board discussion.

(I hate to be pursuing two related but still fairly different topics in one thread, but oh well....)

Standard for judging elite

The standard for judging elite is framed by the fact that Schlenk in his comments on the subject said that every championship team historically has at least one cornerstone/elite player, and so, just logically that's the first and most essential ingredient in the recipe to getting to a championship.

So, the point of the thought exercise is to figure out what might be the common thread between those players that Schlenk has said have been that first and most essential ingredient.

I look at the list of multiple top 5 MVP finishes and say to myself, is there anyone in that list that would not almost universally if not universally considered to be a lead dog/elite/cornerstone player.

Me? I find none. None of them are even on the fence.

That doesn't mean every one of them won a title, or we'd have an exact fit. (Well, at that, almost exact because there's still Chauncey Billups and the 2004 Pistons as the outlier.)

And I don't have any problem with agreeing that MVP is driven by media narratives... then again, trying to be balanced, that really only favors those teams who are more in the limelight than others... in other words, even if we say that some are more in the limelight than others by virtue of their market size or title-pursuit success/tv exposure... you're still left with a list that of only cornerstone players, and the only real criticism is that perhaps there are some cornerstone players left off the list that, maybe with a better GM or a better coach or just more cap room for their team in acquiring free agents, would otherwise have been there.

But we still come back to the point.... we're really trying to boil it down to a good firm fit list of those championship teams' cornerstone players from some objective measure/standard, not some willy-nilly fan's subjective measure.

To the "I just don't accept the 'well come up with a better one then' response response... that's just being dismissive to even pursuing the topic.

If you don't care to examine what common threads there may be and which one might be especially a good fit, then that's your prerogative.

But then, be fair, and accept that fact about your own attitude even as you also accept that others like me might care to examine it.

With that in mind, I'll say for myself I wasn't enamored with Trae during the pre-draft period, he wasn't in my top 5 of potential draftees, in fact he was #2 in my "DO NOT DRAFT!" list. The draft came and I was thoroughly disappointed, but decided I'd give him a fair chance to prove me wrong over a 3 year deadline. Trae ended up coloring me impressed within only one season.

I suppose in terms of meat to chew on, if I was to accept the "top 5 MVP finishes" criteria then I'd have to divide that small list to a much smaller one because Trae notched a few milestones that only a minuscule number of players that probably qualified for the list achieved. Beyond that, Trae surpassed Bibby's career best passing (AST%) and scoring (points per36) seasons in his rookie year alone giving optimism that he's at minimum in a tier or 2 above Bibby. There's ways to go in terms of matching the efficiency and passing of prime Nash but I suppose the consolation is that it took Nash till the age of 30 to put up an AST% higher than Trae's rookie season and he never had a season matching Trae's scoring rate.

Good meat... thanks.

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

So, wait... after almost a full day, and no one else affirms that assertion? C'mon give us fence sitters something more. Really, no offense, but I think I could make as good or better an argument than what's here.

I'm sorry if my opinion doesn't meet your high standard for intellectual discussion. There's a reason I said this felt like a trap and here we are. I think I'll politely bow out at this point. I'm no longer interested in discussions with you. Good day.

You're a bit too easily offended sometimes, and too often read right past some things... and of course, you'll find that observation highly offensive, right?



I "and-1'd" your comment, no?

And to the contrary, do you consider your comment such a "high standard" that you suspect me or others like me couldn't offer something similar?

I appreciated the contribution, and nodded.

And "trap???"... hehe... yeah... I'm king of the gotcha's and if this thread doesn't prove that, then I don't know what else could... (/sarcasm)

[Buzzard]

So, wait... after almost a full day, and no one else affirms that assertion? C'mon give us fence sitters something more. Really, no offense, but I think I could make as good or better an argument than what's here.

I'm sorry if my opinion doesn't meet your high standard for intellectual discussion. There's a reason I said this felt like a trap and here we are. I think I'll politely bow out at this point. I'm no longer interested in discussions with you. Good day.

You're a bit too easily offended sometimes, and too often read right past some things... and of course, you'll find that observation highly offensive, right?



I "and-1'd" your comment, no?

And to the contrary, do you consider your comment such a "high standard" that you suspect me or others like me couldn't offer something similar?

I appreciated the contribution, and nodded.

And "trap???"... hehe... yeah... I'm king of the gotcha's and if this thread doesn't prove that, then I don't know what else could... (/sarcasm)

Lets soothe your internet ego with the ignore button.

[tbhawksfan1]

Trae's play

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

Lets soothe your internet ego with the ignore button.

I'm not even sure why you're inserting yourself into that dialogue, but then again, I probably do.

Look, feel free to take your personal shots at what you don't like about me... there will be no retaliation, because that's just not something I do. Don't need to. Not here to fill any social voids.

Just here to talk Hawks basketball, and substance.

Having said that, I'm also not intentionally rubbing anyone the wrong way, and so when i say what I said before (re: "as good") and RE takes offense to it, then that's a reflection of his own high opinion of his own opinion at work. I voiced no superiority, and in fact, as I said, I even gave an atta-boy to his comment, but that evidently didn't register... not being especially mean by saying that... it just was/is.

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

x

[Jamaaliver]

I'm sorry if my opinion doesn't meet your high standard for intellectual discussion.

There's a reason I said this felt like a trap and here we are.

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

(I call your Peanuts, and raise you A Christmas Story... )




Not that you care about reality.

Don't appreciate the besmirching and the misinformation campaign, but I'm a big boy and understand that's just what people do sometimes when they feel they can't just stick with substance and reality.

"I'm a victim, I'm a victim! Look at me, I'm a victim!"

Silly behavior. Weak response.

"OUCH! He trapped me! That mean man trapped me!"

Baseless whiny nonsense.

This is what I said...

Honest question. And so much so that you can post, rest-assured, this isn't looking for an argument. If I post again in this thread, it will only be to ask for clarification on something someone has said. I'd like to be persuaded.... I'm looking for some people who can offer some actual meat to chew on.

...and indeed, I've yet to argue with any person about the validity of their reasoning. Beyond that, I've only asked certain ones to say more than what they've said. I've asked for meat. And when I've gotten meat, I've acknowledged it. Nice guy that I am.





(Oh, and for anyone who happens upon this post and does care about reality, I refer you to what I said above, and judge for yourself who's characterized things accurately.)

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

Trae's play

If Trae won an MVP in his career, it would not surprise me. He has that kind of talent.

he's already a top 5ish passer in the league by eye test and statistically. Everything else is gravy.

Not calling any one poster out, but...

I'm looking for some people who can offer some actual meat to chew on.

In other words, if you can just as easily apply the words written to a Mike Bibby kind of player as you can to a Steve Nash kind of player, I'm hoping for something more persuasive than that.

I'd add that it would help to see someone actually speaking to some weakness seen in Trae's first year, but that you believe there is reason for optimism for improvement... kinda like this guy did...

“We’re at a point where we need to continue stockpiling talent, and we’ll figure it out,” Schlenk said. “There will be internal growth with our young players defensively. I thought we saw that this year, if you paid attention closely at the beginning of the year when there would be a switch and Trae would get on a guy and they’d roll him in the post. Trae would stay on him. At the end of the year, you’d see when there’s a switch, Trae would get on a guy, and a wing from the weakside would get on him and kick him out to the corner and take him. Those small things take time for young basketball players to figure out.”

[Geaux_Hawks]

Sorry for the delayed response(Traveled for niece graduation).

For starters, Mike Bibby never stood out as a player like Trae has so far. In one year, Trae has blown past everything Bibby has ever accomplished just about. Anything Bibby can claim to having better metrics in, could still be outdone by Trae easily. To top it off, After Trae's putrid first 2 months of the season, he has been every bit of an elite player statistically.

We're at a point where Trae even has his name in record books for rookie stats that would put him above scrubs like Lebron James and MJ. When has Bibby ever been able to make that claim as a record holder? 2nd Most triple doubles by a rookie. 2nd Most 30/10 games. You name it. I mean Trae has done enough in one year to throw any concerns of him being Mike Bibby out the window.

What makes me so confident in Trae is that his name is floating everywhere in the NBA. As a rookie, he has the league buzzing about Atlanta on his own pretty much. If the season had ended after the first 2 months, we would have crowned Doncic as ROY in a landslide as he was producing impressive stats. Now that is a hot topic up for debate, and no one is sure whether it's Trae or Luka. It's not like Luka fell off a cliff either. He still has maintained impressive numbers. Trae has just put himself up there by producing just as impressive numbers.

For now, it's more about believing the hype, than it is having the hard data in place to really show why he should be considered an elite, cornerstone player. He's done more than just show flashes this season. He's absolutely shown he has that in him. Post AS break just screams an elite NBA player. 25/9/5 on 44%/35%/88% shooting is damn good for a rookie to be producing. There's a lot of things that could be said about the kid.

[REHawksFan]

Sorry for the delayed response(Traveled for niece graduation).

For starters, Mike Bibby never stood out as a player like Trae has so far. In one year, Trae has blown past everything Bibby has ever accomplished just about. Anything Bibby can claim to having better metrics in, could still be outdone by Trae easily. To top it off, After Trae's putrid first 2 months of the season, he has been every bit of an elite player statistically.

We're at a point where Trae even has his name in record books for rookie stats that would put him above scrubs like Lebron James and MJ. When has Bibby ever been able to make that claim as a record holder? 2nd Most triple doubles by a rookie. 2nd Most 30/10 games. You name it. I mean Trae has done enough in one year to throw any concerns of him being Mike Bibby out the window.

I'm not sure why Bibby is even being brought up by the OP. Trae accomplished in his rookie year more than Bibby did offensively in any of his 14 seasons. Here's just a few of the ways it's a pretty poor comparison:

Bibby NEVER had 1500+ pts / 600+ ast
Bibby NEVER avg 19 pts / 8 ast
Trae avg 22.3 pts/36; Bibby never cracked 20 pts/36
Trae had 7 30+ pt / 10+ ast games in his rookie year / Bibby had 1 for his career
Trae finished with a 17.0 PER his rookie year / Bibby had a career PER of 16.1 and only 4 times out of 14 seasons was his PER higher than Trae's
Trae's TS% was 53.9% / Bibby's career TS% was 53.6%; he eclipsed Trae's % in only 5 of 14 seasons

Bibby finished his career avg 14.7 pts / 5.5 ast / 3.1 rebs. Trae went 15.6 pts / 7.6 ast / 3.0 rebs in OCT/NOV when everyone thought he was a complete bust. For Trae to finish his career with a Bibby-like stat sheet we'd have to assume that the Oct / Nov Trae (first 23 games) is the REAL Trae and that the last 58 games was just a fluke. That doesn't seem likely, imo.

[REHawksFan]

Duplicate post

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

I'm not sure why Bibby is even being brought up by the OP.

There's an answer for that, right?

It's called a floor because it's a floor... a worst-case scenario.

Bibby essentially was a well regarded scorer and assist maker who also was widely panned for his defense. And he's a former Hawk, so it's someone who a lot of us still remember very well.

I'm not at all saying Trae is someone I suspect would do this, but there is no shortage of NBA ROTY candidates who mostly stagnated, if not regressed, and never really distinguished themselves beyond that first year.

So/but if you want to go find a better floor, that's fine, but the purpose here was just to draw a distinct contrast between a guy who will show up over the course of his career as one of the top players at his position and a guy who over the course of his career will show up as one of the very top players regardless of position.

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

Sorry for the delayed response(Traveled for niece graduation).

For starters, Mike Bibby never stood out as a player like Trae has so far. In one year, Trae has blown past everything Bibby has ever accomplished just about. Anything Bibby can claim to having better metrics in, could still be outdone by Trae easily. To top it off, After Trae's putrid first 2 months of the season, he has been every bit of an elite player statistically.

We're at a point where Trae even has his name in record books for rookie stats that would put him above scrubs like Lebron James and MJ. When has Bibby ever been able to make that claim as a record holder? 2nd Most triple doubles by a rookie. 2nd Most 30/10 games. You name it. I mean Trae has done enough in one year to throw any concerns of him being Mike Bibby out the window.

What makes me so confident in Trae is that his name is floating everywhere in the NBA. As a rookie, he has the league buzzing about Atlanta on his own pretty much. If the season had ended after the first 2 months, we would have crowned Doncic as ROY in a landslide as he was producing impressive stats. Now that is a hot topic up for debate, and no one is sure whether it's Trae or Luka. It's not like Luka fell off a cliff either. He still has maintained impressive numbers. Trae has just put himself up there by producing just as impressive numbers.

For now, it's more about believing the hype, than it is having the hard data in place to really show why he should be considered an elite, cornerstone player. He's done more than just show flashes this season. He's absolutely shown he has that in him. Post AS break just screams an elite NBA player. 25/9/5 on 44%/35%/88% shooting is damn good for a rookie to be producing. There's a lot of things that could be said about the kid.

And 1.

(Not inclined to think you're the type that needs it, but seems just better to just spell it out from now on.)

[D21]

For starters, Mike Bibby never stood out as a player like Trae has so far...

Trea will be better than Bibby, for sure, it's not a comparaison to do, but more than stats, I hope to see one day Trae hitting shots in Conf Finals like Bibby did with SAC against LAL with better ending (Bibby was almost on NBA Finals, and certainly would have win it).
Bibby was impressive in this series, even if in the middle of share first team like never with so many passer.

[Hazer]

My eyes, Trae's nimbers.

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

For starters, Mike Bibby never stood out as a player like Trae has so far...

Trea will be better than Bibby, for sure, it's not a comparaison to do, but more than stats, I hope to see one day Trae hitting shots in Conf Finals like Bibby did with SAC against LAL with better ending (Bibby was almost on NBA Finals, and certainly would have win it).
Bibby was impressive in this series, even if in the middle of share first team like never with so many passer.

That's how I remember it, too, fwiw. Bibby and Webber were en fuego.

[Geaux_Hawks]

And 1.

(Not inclined to think you're the type that needs it, but seems just better to just spell it out for now on.)

Certainly not that type of person. lol

For starters, Mike Bibby never stood out as a player like Trae has so far...

Trea will be better than Bibby, for sure, it's not a comparaison to do, but more than stats, I hope to see one day Trae hitting shots in Conf Finals like Bibby did with SAC against LAL with better ending (Bibby was almost on NBA Finals, and certainly would have win it).
Bibby was impressive in this series, even if in the middle of share first team like never with so many passer.

FTFY.. lol

Just for the record, I wasn't trying to bash Bibby either. It possibly may have come off that way. I for sure thought Bibby had a great career. The things you brought up certainly are things I see Trae doing, but with better results like you said. He's had a few clutch moments this season already.

Before the Bibby comp, I felt we had vibes of being the Kings of the early 00's with C Webb, Peja, Bibby, Christie & Vlade. Our version would be more like Trae, Huerter, Reddish, JC, & Jokic(I can dream, right?!)