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How can ATL best utilize the new Young-Murray backcourt?

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Which backcourt is the best model for Trae and Dejounte?

Isaiah Tomas and Joe Dumars
5
38%
Eric Snow and Allen Iverson
2
15%
Derek Fisher and Kobe Bryant
0
No votes
Rajon Rondo and Ray Allen
3
23%
Chris Paul and Devin Booker
3
23%
 
Total votes: 13

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Re: How can ATL best utilize the new Young-Murray backcourt? 

Post#141 » by Jamaaliver » Sat May 6, 2023 1:42 am

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Re: How can ATL best utilize the new Young-Murray backcourt? 

Post#142 » by D21 » Sat May 6, 2023 5:03 am

The best backcourt model for Trae should be Nash-Bell
This team would be better if he was playing more like Nash than any other PG, it' what matches the most his skillset

And he can improve his team defense, but will never be a great defender, so better have a great SG defender who can shoot naturally, and Murray is a great PG defender, but not a great SG defender

There's no great model for Trae+Murray because this combo can't work at a contender level (unless the roster is full of good talents on all spots, with players being able to be perfect without getting enough touches), especially if they both get a superstar treatment and all the other players gets a small role
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Re: How can ATL best utilize the new Young-Murray backcourt? 

Post#143 » by Jamaaliver » Tue May 23, 2023 12:02 am

Most Awkward Superstar Fits In the NBA Right Now

Trae Young and Dejounte Murray


Much like the Timberwolves with Gobert, the Atlanta Hawks formed this duo in the summer of 2022 with a bold trade that sent a load of assets to the San Antonio Spurs for Dejounte Murray.

And like the Wolves' pair, this new basketball partnership features a ton of positional overlap.

In 2021-22, Trae Young's usage percentage and assist percentage added up to 81.1. Murray's marks added up to 67.9. You don't need to be a math whiz to see that those two numbers add up to well over 100.

Naturally, both had to take steps back in terms of responsibility in 2022-23 (even if Young's was only a slight one). And the season-long pursuit of balance between those two led to a remarkable level of mediocrity.
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That also may have contributed, at least in part, to the mid-season firing of Nate McMillan (and hiring of Quin Snyder).

As was the case with Minnesota, there were reasons to believe this might work. In theory, Young's shooting should've made up for some of Murray's inconsistency there (both were below average in 2022-23 three-point percentage, with Murray having a slightly better mark). Murray's defensive prowess and 6'10" wingspan were supposed to help him survive at the 2.

But at their cores, both of these players are point guards (on both ends of the floor). And in a league where positional size and versatility seem more important every year, starting two point guards is tricky.
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Re: How can ATL best utilize the new Young-Murray backcourt? 

Post#144 » by jayu70 » Thu May 25, 2023 1:42 am

Analyzing Dejounte Murray's Impact in his first season in Atlanta

When Trae drove and the Heat defense collapsed to bracket him with three bodies, Dejounte sat ready as a dual threat shoot-or-drive option waiting on the wing. Here, he took Trae's pass and hit a three.

Moments later, Dejounte ran the transition offense from the middle of the floor, allowing Trae to 1) attack before the defense was set and 2) attack from the side where fewer players could come over to help on defense. 

In the same first-quarter stint, the bracketing came back once again – this time with four bodies (!) – and just like the first time, Trae found Dejounte in the corner for a successful three. 

And the offense kept humming when Trae rested, as Dejounte used the point guard skills that he developed in San Antonio to run the show.

Overall, Dejounte did a great job adjusting to a new role, and as he took care to point out, it was his second such change in two seasons.

"I pride myself in playing the right way," Murray said. "It was a big challenge after having the ball in my hands in San Antonio. (It was kept) quiet really, but that was my first year being a point guard. Before that it was similar to here. Last year was the year where Coach Pop was like, 'We're going to put the ball in your hands and see what you can do.' I feel like I took that challenge, and I did well. Obviously, coming to Atlanta was another challenge. But that's the kind of person I am. I want all challenges. I don't want nothing easy. Adversity is what really builds you."

After one season with Trae and two months under new Head Coach Quin Snyder, Dejounte said that he wants the developing chemistry to keep growing.

"You take the good, the bad – and just the journey – and you enjoy it." he said. "A great story doesn't happen overnight. Success doesn't happen overnight. There are a lot of downs and a lot of days that you have to grind it out and figure it out, you know? It takes getting to know each other off the floor and having a bunch of practice time together. You don't just go out and play in the games and have chemistry. It starts off the floor in practices, and then it translates to the games."

The path to being a great winning team is a long one, but Dejounte sees the vision.

"We're on the right road to that, and I definitely see that the best days are ahead."


https://www.nba.com/hawks/news/analyzing-dejounte-murrays-impact-in-his-first-season-in-atlanta
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Re: How can ATL best utilize the new Young-Murray backcourt? 

Post#145 » by D21 » Thu May 25, 2023 3:02 am

jayu70 wrote:Analyzing Dejounte Murray's Impact in his first season in Atlanta

When Trae drove and the Heat defense collapsed to bracket him with three bodies, Dejounte sat ready as a dual threat shoot-or-drive option waiting on the wing. Here, he took Trae's pass and hit a three.

Moments later, Dejounte ran the transition offense from the middle of the floor, allowing Trae to 1) attack before the defense was set and 2) attack from the side where fewer players could come over to help on defense. 

In the same first-quarter stint, the bracketing came back once again – this time with four bodies (!) – and just like the first time, Trae found Dejounte in the corner for a successful three. 

And the offense kept humming when Trae rested, as Dejounte used the point guard skills that he developed in San Antonio to run the show.

Overall, Dejounte did a great job adjusting to a new role, and as he took care to point out, it was his second such change in two seasons.

"I pride myself in playing the right way," Murray said. "It was a big challenge after having the ball in my hands in San Antonio. (It was kept) quiet really, but that was my first year being a point guard. Before that it was similar to here. Last year was the year where Coach Pop was like, 'We're going to put the ball in your hands and see what you can do.' I feel like I took that challenge, and I did well. Obviously, coming to Atlanta was another challenge. But that's the kind of person I am. I want all challenges. I don't want nothing easy. Adversity is what really builds you."

After one season with Trae and two months under new Head Coach Quin Snyder, Dejounte said that he wants the developing chemistry to keep growing.

"You take the good, the bad – and just the journey – and you enjoy it." he said. "A great story doesn't happen overnight. Success doesn't happen overnight. There are a lot of downs and a lot of days that you have to grind it out and figure it out, you know? It takes getting to know each other off the floor and having a bunch of practice time together. You don't just go out and play in the games and have chemistry. It starts off the floor in practices, and then it translates to the games."

The path to being a great winning team is a long one, but Dejounte sees the vision.

"We're on the right road to that, and I definitely see that the best days are ahead."


https://www.nba.com/hawks/news/analyzing-dejounte-murrays-impact-in-his-first-season-in-atlanta


I would have preferred an analysis of the BOS games, where they both took 45 shots per game with Trae, and a look at the defense too instead of some offense only

And added to that, I'm not sure at all that MIA wanted to win this game... even if it was risky to lose and then win the second play-in game, they are the kind of team able to gamble on that just to pick their opponents, and if that was the case, picking MIL and PHI was a good choice. Almost sure that ATL woudl have been better Vs MIL and PHI than Vs BOS
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Re: How can ATL best utilize the new Young-Murray backcourt? 

Post#146 » by jayu70 » Thu May 25, 2023 3:30 am

D21 wrote:
jayu70 wrote:Analyzing Dejounte Murray's Impact in his first season in Atlanta

When Trae drove and the Heat defense collapsed to bracket him with three bodies, Dejounte sat ready as a dual threat shoot-or-drive option waiting on the wing. Here, he took Trae's pass and hit a three.

Moments later, Dejounte ran the transition offense from the middle of the floor, allowing Trae to 1) attack before the defense was set and 2) attack from the side where fewer players could come over to help on defense. 

In the same first-quarter stint, the bracketing came back once again – this time with four bodies (!) – and just like the first time, Trae found Dejounte in the corner for a successful three. 

And the offense kept humming when Trae rested, as Dejounte used the point guard skills that he developed in San Antonio to run the show.

Overall, Dejounte did a great job adjusting to a new role, and as he took care to point out, it was his second such change in two seasons.

"I pride myself in playing the right way," Murray said. "It was a big challenge after having the ball in my hands in San Antonio. (It was kept) quiet really, but that was my first year being a point guard. Before that it was similar to here. Last year was the year where Coach Pop was like, 'We're going to put the ball in your hands and see what you can do.' I feel like I took that challenge, and I did well. Obviously, coming to Atlanta was another challenge. But that's the kind of person I am. I want all challenges. I don't want nothing easy. Adversity is what really builds you."

After one season with Trae and two months under new Head Coach Quin Snyder, Dejounte said that he wants the developing chemistry to keep growing.

"You take the good, the bad – and just the journey – and you enjoy it." he said. "A great story doesn't happen overnight. Success doesn't happen overnight. There are a lot of downs and a lot of days that you have to grind it out and figure it out, you know? It takes getting to know each other off the floor and having a bunch of practice time together. You don't just go out and play in the games and have chemistry. It starts off the floor in practices, and then it translates to the games."

The path to being a great winning team is a long one, but Dejounte sees the vision.

"We're on the right road to that, and I definitely see that the best days are ahead."


https://www.nba.com/hawks/news/analyzing-dejounte-murrays-impact-in-his-first-season-in-atlanta


I would have preferred an analysis of the BOS games, where they both took 45 shots per game with Trae, and a look at the defense too instead of some offense only

And added to that, I'm not sure at all that MIA wanted to win this game... even if it was risky to lose and then win the second play-in game, they are the kind of team able to gamble on that just to pick their opponents, and if that was the case, picking MIL and PHI was a good choice. Almost sure that ATL woudl have been better Vs MIL and PHI than Vs BOS

I would surmise the Miami game was the focus considering how much Trae struggled against them in the playoffs last year and during the season, and the defense they played against him then vs how Quin and the Murray addition helped to solve it.

I don't believe for one second that Miami didn't want to win that playin game and/or had some master plan for Giannis to get injured and miss games.
Give the Hawks their credit. It's more likely that Miami over looked the Hawks and expected to beat them handily based on last year's playoffs.
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Re: How can ATL best utilize the new Young-Murray backcourt? 

Post#147 » by D21 » Thu May 25, 2023 4:51 am

jayu70 wrote:Give the Hawks their credit. It's more likely that Miami over looked the Hawks and expected to beat them handily based on last year's playoffs.


Never thought they didn't deserve the win, even if MIA had play better, I'm sure Hawks would have respond and step up again, because, yes, they absolutely wanted to win. But I'm really not sure about MIA, Giannis or not, we all know that it would have been better to get MIL than BOS because Hawks know a bit more how to defend the Bucks than the Celtics, and MIA might have thought about that too.

Yes, Murray and Quin helped, but maybe not a lot more than playing with Clint, John and Bogi healthy, which was not the case last season Vs MIA. Despite their injuries and Trae being limited by MIA defense, they were in the game several times at the end, and almost won the Game5 making it 2-3.

Trading for another All Star PG was an overreaction to this series, and I was afraid they would do this mistake because it's not what this team needed the most. Yes it helped Vs MIA, but not on a overall point Vs most of the teams. Murray is a good defender at PG, but at SG, he didn't really limit any SG in the league this season.
Worst, they were bad during the 13min each game Trae was on the bench, and the team played far better Vs BOS when they were not both on the floor at the same time taking all the shots.

Now, if he's not traded, I at least have hope that Quin will find a way to make them work together and improve when Murray is the PG, which I would have not believed with Nate.
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Re: How can ATL best utilize the new Young-Murray backcourt? 

Post#148 » by jayu70 » Thu May 25, 2023 11:45 am

D21 wrote:
jayu70 wrote:Give the Hawks their credit. It's more likely that Miami over looked the Hawks and expected to beat them handily based on last year's playoffs.


Never thought they didn't deserve the win, even if MIA had play better, I'm sure Hawks would have respond and step up again, because, yes, they absolutely wanted to win. But I'm really not sure about MIA, Giannis or not, we all know that it would have been better to get MIL than BOS because Hawks know a bit more how to defend the Bucks than the Celtics, and MIA might have thought about that too.

Yes, Murray and Quin helped, but maybe not a lot more than playing with Clint, John and Bogi healthy, which was not the case last season Vs MIA. Despite their injuries and Trae being limited by MIA defense, they were in the game several times at the end, and almost won the Game5 making it 2-3.

Trading for another All Star PG was an overreaction to this series, and I was afraid they would do this mistake because it's not what this team needed the most. Yes it helped Vs MIA, but not on a overall point Vs most of the teams. Murray is a good defender at PG, but at SG, he didn't really limit any SG in the league this season.
Worst, they were bad during the 13min each game Trae was on the bench, and the team played far better Vs BOS when they were not both on the floor at the same time taking all the shots.

Now, if he's not traded, I at least have hope that Quin will find a way to make them work together and improve when Murray is the PG, which I would have not believed with Nate.

The pairing is still a work in progress. Both have to make adjustments and build chemistry. Nate's lack of offensive scheme didn't help alleviate any of that. This is from Murray:

Murray said. "It was a big challenge after having the ball in my hands in San Antonio. (It was kept) quiet really, [b]but that was my first year being a point guard. Before that it was similar to here. Last year was the year where Coach Pop was like, 'We're going to put the ball in your hands and see what you can do.'[/b] I feel like I took that challenge, and I did well. Obviously, coming to Atlanta was another challenge. But that's the kind of person I am. I want all challenges. I don't want nothing easy. Adversity is what really builds you."
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Re: How can ATL best utilize the new Young-Murray backcourt? 

Post#149 » by Jamaaliver » Thu May 25, 2023 12:40 pm

jayu70 wrote:
Overall, Dejounte did a great job adjusting to a new role, and as he took care to point out, it was his second such change in two seasons.

The path to being a great winning team is a long one, but Dejounte sees the vision.


https://www.nba.com/hawks/news/analyzing-dejounte-murrays-impact-in-his-first-season-in-atlanta


1. Nice pull.

2. I do enjoy KL Chouinard's work in the podcasting realm, but I have to remind myself often that he is a Hawks Team employee.

Everything he writes/says is largely team propaganda.
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Re: How can ATL best utilize the new Young-Murray backcourt? 

Post#150 » by D21 » Thu May 25, 2023 4:45 pm

jayu70 wrote:The pairing is still a work in progress. Both have to make adjustments and build chemistry. Nate's lack of offensive scheme didn't help alleviate any of that. This is from Murray:

Murray said. "It was a big challenge after having the ball in my hands in San Antonio. (It was kept) quiet really, [b]but that was my first year being a point guard. Before that it was similar to here. Last year was the year where Coach Pop was like, 'We're going to put the ball in your hands and see what you can do.'[/b] I feel like I took that challenge, and I did well. Obviously, coming to Atlanta was another challenge. But that's the kind of person I am. I want all challenges. I don't want nothing easy. Adversity is what really builds you."


But what I read in this quote from Murray is that:
- he was to not play PG first, so he should have experience playing SG, even if he had reason reasons to be a bit lost after spending his time playing PG only the previous season
- he did well the previous season, better than before, so he's better at PG than SG, but ATL play him most of the time SG...

The real positive point I see is that he likes challenges and was not frustrated to the point of not wanting to play SG anymore
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Re: How can ATL best utilize the new Young-Murray backcourt? 

Post#151 » by Jamaaliver » Mon Jun 26, 2023 12:06 am

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Re: How can ATL best utilize the new Young-Murray backcourt? 

Post#152 » by Jamaaliver » Sun Jul 2, 2023 3:08 am

Do we still, as a fanbase, want to keep the Trae-DeJounte backcourt together?

With TyTy and Kobe on deck, and AJ and Bogi spacing the floor at SG, we ready to move on from DJM in exchange for picks or a proven front court player?
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Re: How can ATL best utilize the new Young-Murray backcourt? 

Post#153 » by King Ken » Sun Jul 2, 2023 3:57 am

Jamaaliver wrote:Do we still, as a fanbase, want to keep the Trae-DeJounte backcourt together?

With TyTy and Kobe on deck, and AJ and Bogi spacing the floor at SG, we ready to move on from DJM in exchange for picks or a proven front court player?

I am willing to see another season with Quin having a full off season to get his style, development and system into place.
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Re: How can ATL best utilize the new Young-Murray backcourt? 

Post#154 » by Jamaaliver » Mon Jul 3, 2023 3:06 am

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Re: How can ATL best utilize the new Young-Murray backcourt? 

Post#155 » by Jamaaliver » Thu Jul 6, 2023 4:07 am

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Re: How can ATL best utilize the new Young-Murray backcourt? 

Post#156 » by tbhawksfan1 » Thu Jul 6, 2023 6:11 pm

Considering age, money, position and other assets necessary. I far prefer Murray over Siakam
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Re: How can ATL best utilize the new Young-Murray backcourt? 

Post#157 » by Jamaaliver » Sat Jul 15, 2023 3:35 pm

I think this means both Trae and DeJounte overdribble -- a lot. Working much too hard for low efficiency shot attempts.

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Re: How can ATL best utilize the new Young-Murray backcourt? 

Post#158 » by tbhawksfan1 » Mon Jul 17, 2023 6:47 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:I think this means both Trae and DeJounte overdribble -- a lot. Working much too hard for low efficiency shot attempts.

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Ouch :roll:
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Re: How can ATL best utilize the new Young-Murray backcourt? 

Post#159 » by tbhawksfan1 » Mon Jul 17, 2023 6:49 pm

I find it interesting that both our Hawks and CLEV boast two All-star level guards in VERY under-sized back courts and despite good team talent, both teams totally fizzled last playoffs
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Re: How can ATL best utilize the new Young-Murray backcourt? 

Post#160 » by Jamaaliver » Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:41 pm

tbhawksfan1 wrote:I find it interesting that both our Hawks and CLEV boast two All-star level guards in VERY under-sized back courts and despite good team talent, both teams totally fizzled last playoffs



IDK if ATL fizzled. CLE definitely underwhelmed. Losing badly to a lower seeded, underwhelming NYK team despite having homecourt advantage.

Hawks at least stole a game in BOS and made Celtics sweat a bit after upending MIA in the play-in.

It's very different losing as the underdog (Hawks) vs being dominated by a team that is essentially your equal (Cavs).

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