Josh Smith

[Harry10]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WMOQ8WMnmiA&feature=related

Hawks need more Josh and less Joe.

i think that Joe is a ball hog, but it is not his fault, i blame it more on Woody's offensive coaching abilities.

Josh has taken another big stride from last year to this year. he can now create his own shot, but not completely proficient at it. i remember the last two years Josh would have one or two plays made up just for him where he would get an ally-oop, and i don't see that any more.

[NDaATL]

i think that Joe is a ball hog, but it is not his fault, i blame it more on Woody's offensive coaching abilities.

Well it looks like it but the reality is that we don't want Smith/Marvin/Horford/Childress constantly dribbling the ball, that would be nothing but turnovers. It's definitely Woody's offense that's the problem. AJ just isn't good enough to handle it constantly, and Acie isn't quite ready yet. Anyone notice how our offense gets even WORSE when JJ sits down?

[killbuckner]

NdaATL- how is it Woody's offense thats the problem when by your own admission none of those other players are good enough to handle the ball consistently? To me thats a pretty massive indictment on how BK has put this team together.

[NDaATL]

Have I not made my despise of BK clear enough? Perhaps I should try harder .

Regardless, if you can't tell how bad Woodson's offense is DESPITE BKs horrible flaws, than you just haven't been paying attention. Woody's offense sucks. Joe and Marvin should be running around constantly running off screens, we never do that. Instead our players walk the ball up the floor and stand around the 3pt line forcing someone to attempt a one on one. It's downright horrible. We have possibly the most athletic team in the NBA running the slowest paced offense in the NBA. Remember Woody's "I let offense take care of itself" comments? He wasn't kidding.

[killbuckner]

But who is supposed to be handling the ball while JJ and marvin are running off of all those screens? THe Hawks have one guy who can consistently draw a doubleteam and unfortunately also the guy who is the teams best 3 point shooter. I simply believe that if the Hawks had either a PG or a low post threat then the offense would miraculously look a world better because the team would have more options.

The Hawks aren't a strong rebounding team and they have no PG- I simply don't see how they can run consistently. If the Hawks just had a competent starting PG then the team wouldn't be running down the shotclock so much as well. I think it is absolutely impossible to judge Woodson's coaching ability when he has the worst PG's in the league and no post game. Seriously, there isn't another team in the league as deficient in these 2 areas. You can build an offense with one or the other, but its incredibly tough to build an offense with neither.

I just sit and think about what kind of offense I would be putting together if I were the coach and its incredibly tough. You just put a distributing PG on this team and the whole roster becomes a lot more useful in my opinion.

[NDaATL]

Well, other things such as insisting on playing Zaza and Lue when they are completely sucking pisses me off too. At this point there is no way Solomon could play worse than Zaza. I still don't understand why Salim isn't getting a chance. We need offense in the worst way, I'd give him a consistent 10-15 minutes per game and let him go. Otherwise, when he hasn't played in 5 games, he's under a TON of pressure to produce when he's out there because he knows he's getting yanked for 5 more games if he doesn't. It's tough to play like that. I have noticed almost every time he gets consistent minutes he tends to play more relaxed and shoots a lot better.

I do agree about our PGs though, a good one definitely makes coaching easier, but that still doesn't take away from Woody's inadequacy as a head coach IMO. I seriously think Acie should be given 25+ minutes and be allowed to play through his mistakes, it's really our only chance. He's the type of player that will motivate himself to do better if he plays bad because he gets pissed about it, and he's a great leader. He gets to the basket at will because he's extremely quick, but he's just had problems finishing his layups. I have no doubt he will improve on that. He was playing extremely well in the 2 games prior to getting injured, and he's also a better defender than any other PG on our roster.

Horford was allowed to play through his mistakes (was traveling all over the place) and he has now almost completely eliminated his turnovers. I think Acie should also be given that chance, it's really our only hope since BK is immune from making trades.

[UGA Hayes]

But who is supposed to be handling the ball while JJ and marvin are running off of all those screens? THe Hawks have one guy who can consistently draw a doubleteam and unfortunately also the guy who is the teams best 3 point shooter. I simply believe that if the Hawks had either a PG or a low post threat then the offense would miraculously look a world better because the team would have more options.

The Hawks aren't a strong rebounding team and they have no PG- I simply don't see how they can run consistently. If the Hawks just had a competent starting PG then the team wouldn't be running down the shotclock so much as well. I think it is absolutely impossible to judge Woodson's coaching ability when he has the worst PG's in the league and no post game. Seriously, there isn't another team in the league as deficient in these 2 areas. You can build an offense with one or the other, but its incredibly tough to build an offense with neither.

I just sit and think about what kind of offense I would be putting together if I were the coach and its incredibly tough. You just put a distributing PG on this team and the whole roster becomes a lot more useful in my opinion.

I agree with this 100%. If you don't have a PG who is handling the ball a huge percentage of the time your team is always going to look awkward on offense b/c avg ballhandlers are running the offense.

[killbuckner]

NDaATL- you need to realize that playing Acie and Salim bigger minutes is likely going to cost the team dearly in the standings. Personally I am not willing to trade 25 minutes of Acie for having a legitimate shot at making the playoffs. And like it or not, Acie hasn't at all played well and the team hasn't done well with him on the court. I would rather the team pick and choose spots where Acie has a strong likelyhood of doing well. He simply doesn't seem ready to carry a heavy load for a team with playoff aspirations.

Salim doesn't get a chance because the team doesn't think he can handle playing the point. So now he is a backup SG who has almost no chance at actually guarding SG's. So he is limited to situations where the team is sliding Joe or Childress over to PG. Basically Salim's chance to stick in the league was based on his ability to be an adequate PG. At least it seems now the team feels that he simply can't do it.

But seriously- I think if you give Acie and Salim a combined 40 minutes a game like you suggest then the Hawks will have pretty much no chance of making the payoffs once again. Normally that wouldn't be such a bad thing since they would get a better pick, but since the Suns own the Hawks first round pick I think it puts the Hawks in win now mode.

As far as Zaza- I have no idea why his game has collapsed so thoroughly this season. He was very useful last year- I can understand Woodson still trying to figure out how to make him useful again this year. But now its to the point where the Hawks may just dump him for an expiring contract to clear that caproom.

[NDaATL]

NDaATL- you need to realize that playing Acie and Salim bigger minutes is likely going to cost the team dearly in the standings. Personally I am not willing to trade 25 minutes of Acie for having a legitimate shot at making the playoffs. And like it or not, Acie hasn't at all played well and the team hasn't done well with him on the court. I would rather the team pick and choose spots where Acie has a strong likelyhood of doing well. He simply doesn't seem ready to carry a heavy load for a team with playoff aspirations.

I don't want to get into a +/- discussion with you so I'll just leave that alone. I would rather you actually evaluate Acie's game on what he's doing wrong, not just saying "well the team is better with him off the court" or whatever. I agree that Acie hasn't played particularly well but he has still shown a LOT of flashes, but he gets yanked so quickly.

About playoff aspirations, we are on a 4 game slide against mediocre to bad teams, and are DESPERATE for offense, we need to try something.

Salim doesn't get a chance because the team doesn't think he can handle playing the point. So now he is a backup SG who has almost no chance at actually guarding SG's. So he is limited to situations where the team is sliding Joe or Childress over to PG. Basically Salim's chance to stick in the league was based on his ability to be an adequate PG. At least it seems now the team feels that he simply can't do it.

I'm only talking about giving him a consistent 10+ minutes per game, nothing major. I'd definitely rather see him running the point than Lue, because he's better than Lue on defense, and Lue doesn't setup the offense either. He stands at the top of the key and dribbles the leather off the ball.

But seriously- I think if you give Acie and Salim a combined 40 minutes a game like you suggest then the Hawks will have pretty much no chance of making the payoffs once again. Normally that wouldn't be such a bad thing since they would get a better pick, but since the Suns own the Hawks first round pick I think it puts the Hawks in win now mode.

When you yank young players as soon as they make mistakes, it kills confidence. Now I don't think Acie has lost confidence at all, but I'm sure he's looking over his shoulder every time he's in the game, same with Salim. It's tough to play like that, and players tend to play conservative because they are scared to make a mistake. Doesn't that sound similar to what Acie has done this season?

Look at Horford, he was averaging ~4 TO's per game early on, and traveling every time he touched the ball. Woodson continued to play him and he has virtually eliminated his TO problem. I'm not saying Acie will absolutely start playing very well this season, but it's worth a try IMO because I honestly don't see us doing anything with Lue and AJ running the team.

As far as Zaza- I have no idea why his game has collapsed so thoroughly this season. He was very useful last year- I can understand Woodson still trying to figure out how to make him useful again this year. But now its to the point where the Hawks may just dump him for an expiring contract to clear that caproom.

I agree. He still has the ability to help this team, but he thinks he's a scorer. EVERYTIME he touches the ball, he holds it and trys to create something. After getting his lunch packed 25 times in a row you would think he would learn. And as much as it pains me, I think his defense has actually gotten worse. You remember Dampier getting two straight wide open dunks against him on misplayed pick and rolls?

[killbuckner]

If Acie were putting up good stats and the team just happened to do poorly with him on the court then it woudl be a different issue. But Acie currently has a PER of just 7.5. I am the first one to say that individual stats don't tell the whole story with PG's. But when the individual stats say that he is struggling mightily and the team is doing worse with him on the court then I simply don't know what you need to see to think that he might be hurting the team out there. Flashes stick out in the minds of fans, but flashes aren't what wins games. The Hawks need to decide if they are more interested in making the playoffs or developing a rookie PG. I would vote for making the playoffs.

I don't think much of Salim's game. I think there are many guys who are his size that can shoot a 3 pointer. Frankly I would rather see the Hawks cut him and use that roster spot on someone who might have a future in the league. You have to understand that Salim is a pretty terrible passer even as a SG- he is COMPLETELY incapable of playing PG at the pro level. Salim would have to be a 40% 3 point shooter to be a legitimate option, he just hasn't shown that kind of ability.

And I think that putting Acie out there in situations that he can't handle will kill his confidence much more than playing limited minutes where he should be able to do well. If he can't consistently get to the basket against backup PG's then I don't know why he should be put out there against the starters. I think that fans had really high hopes for Acie because he was a 4 year college guy and a lottery pick. But when you get outside the top 10 you are just drafting well if you can get a solid contributor, many guys in this range never make any impact. I want to see Acie do well against the backups and have him EARN more minutes.

I think that Zaza needs a change of scenery. He is on a team that has used top 5 picks 2 years in a row to try and upgrade his position. I think it has just messed with his head. I am generally always against trading guys when their value is low, but I don't know that its goign to turn around on the Hawks. But it will certainly hurt if he goes to a new team and starts to immediately produce again.

[tontoz]

kb do you have a favorite team or do you just like to go to different teams boards and dog their players?

[killbuckner]

tontoz- I live in atlanta. I watch more Hawks games than I do of any other team.

[conleyorbust]

Regarding Harry's original post, I was advocating this to an extent for a while during most of November and part of December. The thing is that Joe's shot started falling again for a stretch and when his shot is falling, he is our most dangerous offensive player and should therefore be creating the most offense. Still, I think that we should run more sets through Josh in the half court than we do now. When he gets the ball early in the shot clock he can be almost impossible to stop because he just goes right by the power forward who is guarding him. His passing ability has been pretty impressive too, so teams pay when they double him. He is still too turnover prone but if anyone legitimately thinks that Joe's shooting woes have come from too much defensive pressure, than Woody should do something to lessen that pressure and letting Joe get more open looks by featuring someone else would help. All of our clearouts are perimeter based too, we have 5 players who have shown ability to post but we NEVER run sets inside for AJ, JJ, Marv, Josh, or Al. To say that Joe is our only ball handler is a bit misleading, AJ is a competent ball handler and distributor, certainly not a dynamic playmaker but a compentent enough point guard that he can initiate the offense with an entry pass while Joe or Marv attempt to move off the ball... for all Joe's gifts, and there are many, he hasn't been as adept as I'd hoped at finding cutters or shooters coming off of screens, his passing ability seems to be much more suited to his kickouts and passing out of doubles.

[tontoz]

Getting back to Smith his PER of 20.55 is 28th in the league. For comparison purposes..

Redd 21.05
Kevin Martin 21.04
Pierce 20.53
Jamison 20.36
Deron 20.21
Hamilton 20.08
Roy 20.03
Vince 19.99
Marion 19.76
Carmelo 19.67

[conleyorbust]

Getting back to Smith his PER of 20.55 is 28th in the league. For comparison purposes..

Redd 21.05
Kevin Martin 21.04
Pierce 20.53
Jamison 20.36
Deron 20.21
Hamilton 20.08
Roy 20.03
Vince 19.99
Marion 19.76
Carmelo 19.67

Not bad company to be in... especially considering that his defensive "impact" eclipses all of those guy's and Josh's PER has been increasing whereas a lot of those cats have been decreasing.

[JoshB914]

I love Smoove but I don't think he flourishes when the offense is centered around him. He can get out of control driving to the basket and is too turnover prone. He can score efficiently when he gets the ball on the block or is cleaning up the trash inside. He will also get points driving the basket and getting to the foul line. The thing is, if that is one of our main focal points on offense I think teams will be able to stop it. Just look what Detroit did to Smoove when he was driving more than usual.

Smoove is a guy that is alraedy a monster on D. But on O he needs to ease into games and find himself before we see where he will be successful. Against NJ they were letting him get to the basket so he drove, but against other teams they will guard him more tightly and most of his points will come in the paint.

The guy we need to run more plays for is Marvin. He is deadly with the mid range jumper and has the quicknes and length to be very dangerous when he drives to the basket.

[NDaATL]

If he can't consistently get to the basket against backup PG's then I don't know why he should be put out there against the starters.

Since when has Acie not been able to get to the basket?

[LL Cool Scott]

Blaming Mike Woodson any time the Hawks struggle is really getting played out. We have nobody (yet) who can draw a double team in the low post. And we have nobody (yet) who can penetrate into the lane and create a shot for others. Maybe Horford and/or Smith will develop a consistent post game. Maybe Law will develop into a true point guard. Neither has happened yet, and this offense will be mediocre until that happens.

[JoshB914]

IV can get to the basket but he hasn't done anything useful when he does it. He doesn't have the court vision to find the open man, or the finishing ability to get a bucket out of it, often he just looks out of control and ends up tossing up a crazy floater.

[NDaATL]

IV can get to the basket but he hasn't done anything useful when he does it. He doesn't have the court vision to find the open man, or the finishing ability to get a bucket out of it, often he just looks out of control and ends up tossing up a crazy floater.

That's not true at all. He gets to the basket almost at will, but you are right that he hasn't finished well so far. I'm confident he will improve this. Most of his drives are very IN control, he's just rimming out alot of them. Getting to the basket and penetrating is definitely not something he will struggle with during his career. I'm just hoping his jumper turns out well and he can run an offense better. He hasn't really been given much of a chance to do so, and he's been hurt alot this season as well. He was playing awesome right before his ankle injury.