Has got to be turned loose. He came in ready to play. In the Pre and early season he was on.
It looks like in trying to turn him into a NBA pass first PG, they've completely screwed him up. Not surprising. The Hawks young talent hasn't exactly developed at light speed.
Every day I think about what a good coach could do with this team. Acie is a player. Got to let him play.
The Hawks should be fighting for every inch in their playoff push. But the team should still be being built with and eye on next season and the next four or five. That appears to be the Hawks window of opportunity for this rebuilding go-around.
Acie Law
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killbuckner
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Frankily I think that Acie is just overmatched. People here who think he can contribute in a major way now are just engaging in serious homerism and wishcasting. He isn't getting it done against backups and you want to see him bet more playing time? He needs to earn his PT- he has been the worst PG on the Hawks this season.
Just to put his stats into perspective. First of all his PER is 6.83. The second lowest PER for PG's in the league. (Jeff McInnis is worse)
This as a guy who you think should be a scoring PG but his True Shooting percentage is 56th out of 62 pointguards. He hurts the team when he shoots with numbers like that.
Acie turns the ball over a ton for a PG. Once again he has the second highest TO ratio in the league for PG's. (Darrell Armstrong is worse) He isn't offsetting this with either big scoring numbers or huge assist numbers.
Rebounding? Once again Law is the 2nd worst rebounder from a PG in the league. (Damon Jones is last) This from a 6-3 guard who people here think is a very athletic guy. His rebounding numbers were terrible in college as well. Its just a lousy sign for his athletic ability.
But I have always said that individual stats aren't as important for a PG as the team results. If the team were doing well with Acie on the court then I wouldn't particularly care what individual stats he was putting up. But in reality the team has been pretty lousy with him on the floor. This season the Hawks have been a -59 with him on the court (in large part against backups) and a +22 without him. +/- is a tough stat for comparing guys in between teams but comparing him to guys at his same position can be illustrative. For comparison AJ has a +10 on court and the team is -47 without him. People here absolutely despise Lue but the team is +16 with him and -53 without him. The team simply hasn't done well with Law on the court- the results simply aren't there.
And remember that law has been putting these numbers up against backups. The team is TRYING to put him in position where he can succeed. But with numbers so bad across the board he flat out isn't getting it done. There simply isn't any objective reason to think that Law deserves more time. If you want to play him even though its likely to hurt the team on the court then thats a perfectly valid opinion. But to me this is a team that wants to make the playoffs- he needs to earn his playing time and to this point he simply hasn't shown he deserves a larger role.
NONE of this is saying that Acie can't develop. I just think that because he was a 4 year college player and a lottery pick that people got their hopes way up that he could contribute right away. But the results on the court just scream that he isn't ready yet to contribute to a playoff team.
Just to put his stats into perspective. First of all his PER is 6.83. The second lowest PER for PG's in the league. (Jeff McInnis is worse)
This as a guy who you think should be a scoring PG but his True Shooting percentage is 56th out of 62 pointguards. He hurts the team when he shoots with numbers like that.
Acie turns the ball over a ton for a PG. Once again he has the second highest TO ratio in the league for PG's. (Darrell Armstrong is worse) He isn't offsetting this with either big scoring numbers or huge assist numbers.
Rebounding? Once again Law is the 2nd worst rebounder from a PG in the league. (Damon Jones is last) This from a 6-3 guard who people here think is a very athletic guy. His rebounding numbers were terrible in college as well. Its just a lousy sign for his athletic ability.
But I have always said that individual stats aren't as important for a PG as the team results. If the team were doing well with Acie on the court then I wouldn't particularly care what individual stats he was putting up. But in reality the team has been pretty lousy with him on the floor. This season the Hawks have been a -59 with him on the court (in large part against backups) and a +22 without him. +/- is a tough stat for comparing guys in between teams but comparing him to guys at his same position can be illustrative. For comparison AJ has a +10 on court and the team is -47 without him. People here absolutely despise Lue but the team is +16 with him and -53 without him. The team simply hasn't done well with Law on the court- the results simply aren't there.
And remember that law has been putting these numbers up against backups. The team is TRYING to put him in position where he can succeed. But with numbers so bad across the board he flat out isn't getting it done. There simply isn't any objective reason to think that Law deserves more time. If you want to play him even though its likely to hurt the team on the court then thats a perfectly valid opinion. But to me this is a team that wants to make the playoffs- he needs to earn his playing time and to this point he simply hasn't shown he deserves a larger role.
NONE of this is saying that Acie can't develop. I just think that because he was a 4 year college player and a lottery pick that people got their hopes way up that he could contribute right away. But the results on the court just scream that he isn't ready yet to contribute to a playoff team.
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Hawks
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We can't blame Woodson for Acie playing sorry this year. We gave him a pass for a little while after coming back from that injury. He look just as bad now as he did coming back from the injury. Acie hasn't done anything to earn playing time. Law better step it up soon. If Lue can remain somewhat healthy and he gets his legs again. We will be seeing AJ/Lue combo at PG and Law progression will be stunted.
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NDaATL
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I think he's doing OK, it just seems that so many of his layups rim out. Once those start falling (they will) he will look alot better out there, just like JJ looks a million times better when his jumper is falling. Acie has the potential to be a Tony Parker type slashing PG who constantly scores in the paint, I think he'll get there. He's so much quicker than I remembered him being in college.
Either way, killbuckner, using the +/- is just not an accurate way of measuring, it can only support an argument, but you can't use it to make your entire argument. I'm not saying Acie has played well, I'm just saying that IN GENERAL the +/- is just not that important. That same stat suggests that Utah is 4 points WORSE with Deron on the floor. That's just rediculous. Another thing about Acie, he's not just playing against backups, that's just dumb, he plays during alot of significant times in games and alot of which are against starters. Not only that, he is also playing WITH backups, AJ starts and plays with Smith/Marvin/Horford more often and Acie plays with Childress/Shelden/Zaza, things like that make a big difference and are things that you completely ignore. Am I saying Acie gives us a better chance to win than AJ?? No, but just stop using +/- to make your opinion, I haven't seen you actually comment on his ACTUAL game yet.
Either way, killbuckner, using the +/- is just not an accurate way of measuring, it can only support an argument, but you can't use it to make your entire argument. I'm not saying Acie has played well, I'm just saying that IN GENERAL the +/- is just not that important. That same stat suggests that Utah is 4 points WORSE with Deron on the floor. That's just rediculous. Another thing about Acie, he's not just playing against backups, that's just dumb, he plays during alot of significant times in games and alot of which are against starters. Not only that, he is also playing WITH backups, AJ starts and plays with Smith/Marvin/Horford more often and Acie plays with Childress/Shelden/Zaza, things like that make a big difference and are things that you completely ignore. Am I saying Acie gives us a better chance to win than AJ?? No, but just stop using +/- to make your opinion, I haven't seen you actually comment on his ACTUAL game yet.
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the southern dandy
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killbuckner
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NDaATL- I have always said that there are problems with +/- but that it does give valuable information for how the team is actually performing with different players. Put it this way- I think that now it was rather clear that I had a more accurate view of Acie's game back when this conversation first came up than the people I was arguing with. At the time it was almost blasphemy to say that Acie wasn't RIGHT now the best PG on the Hawks. But the numbers made it rather clear that a lot of people were just watching him play with rose colored glasses on. Maybe at some point I will bump that thread back up to get a laugh out of it.
I think the problem is that you think I am trying to spin the stats to make it seem like Acie sucks when really I am trying to just look at all the objective data to see for myself how good Acie actually is. You know that there are times when +/- can give misleading information but I don't think you have any idea how consistently poor Acie has played this season. SO here is a list of the "core" hawks players and how they have done with AJ, Lue, and Acie on the court. Any one of these numbers doesn't matter that much but taken as a whole I think you will see a rather clear pattern
Smith AJ -4 Lue +15 Acie -42
JOhnson AJ +14 Lue -5 Acie -19
Horford AJ +21 Lue -20 Acie -44
Marvin AJ +3 Lue -6 Acie 0
Childress AJ -3 Lue +17 Acie -39
Don't you see any sort of pattern there? Like I said- any one of these numbers doesn't matter as much as the consistent pattern across the board. These players just are getting better results with the other PG's. In fact showing exactly the opposite of your objection the only player who over the course of the season Acie is positive with is Shelden Williams.
You haven't heard me talk about his ACTUAL play? He is a lousy shooter and he turns the ball over a ton. People want him to be a scoring PG but he simply hasn't shown the ability to be that yet. He is a terrible rebounder (shockingly bad for someone his height) and isn't doing much on defense. BUt in the end he is a ROOKIE and all this is to be expected. No one here knows what he is- he could still be anything from a bust to a quality starter in the league. But the numbers across the board show that he simply isn't ready yet to contribute in a large role to a playoff team.
NDaATL wrote:Not only that, he is also playing WITH backups, AJ starts and plays with Smith/Marvin/Horford more often and Acie plays with Childress/Shelden/Zaza, things like that make a big difference and are things that you completely ignore.
I think the problem is that you think I am trying to spin the stats to make it seem like Acie sucks when really I am trying to just look at all the objective data to see for myself how good Acie actually is. You know that there are times when +/- can give misleading information but I don't think you have any idea how consistently poor Acie has played this season. SO here is a list of the "core" hawks players and how they have done with AJ, Lue, and Acie on the court. Any one of these numbers doesn't matter that much but taken as a whole I think you will see a rather clear pattern
Smith AJ -4 Lue +15 Acie -42
JOhnson AJ +14 Lue -5 Acie -19
Horford AJ +21 Lue -20 Acie -44
Marvin AJ +3 Lue -6 Acie 0
Childress AJ -3 Lue +17 Acie -39
Don't you see any sort of pattern there? Like I said- any one of these numbers doesn't matter as much as the consistent pattern across the board. These players just are getting better results with the other PG's. In fact showing exactly the opposite of your objection the only player who over the course of the season Acie is positive with is Shelden Williams.
You haven't heard me talk about his ACTUAL play? He is a lousy shooter and he turns the ball over a ton. People want him to be a scoring PG but he simply hasn't shown the ability to be that yet. He is a terrible rebounder (shockingly bad for someone his height) and isn't doing much on defense. BUt in the end he is a ROOKIE and all this is to be expected. No one here knows what he is- he could still be anything from a bust to a quality starter in the league. But the numbers across the board show that he simply isn't ready yet to contribute in a large role to a playoff team.
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NDaATL
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killbuckner wrote:But the numbers made it rather clear that a lot of people were just watching him play with rose colored glasses on. Maybe at some point I will bump that thread back up to get a laugh out of it.
Actually at that time Acie WAS playing better than Lue and AJ. AJ sucked at the beginning of the season and didn't really start playing well until Acie got injured. Acie played very well in the Dallas game and was playing great in the 2 games prior to being injured, and he had like 7 assists in the first half against the Bobcats before getting hurt in the 3rd quarter.
Lue and AJ have pretty much sucked on defense all year, Acie is definitely better than them on defense, especially Lue. You are completely 100% correct that AJ has outplayed Law in the past month but at that time it was not unreasonable to say that Law had played better. Why do you think Acie was starting those last 2 games before he was hurt? At that time your ONLY argument was +/-. Regardless, keep using it, hardly anyone completely uses that stat as the end all argument the way you do unless they have no idea what they're talking about.
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NDaATL
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the southern dandy wrote:Point guard is the most difficult position to adjust to for a young player. Acie is in an ideal position where he can backup a solid veteran until he gets the hang of running the team himself. I have the utmost faith in him.
I agree, and I have plenty of faith in him. Acie gets to the basket at will, I mean Tony Parker-esque, he's just not finishing layups well. He's so much quicker than I remember him. He still has a lot of work to do, though, but I think he'll turn into a quality starter, he has too much of passion and drive for the game to fail IMO.
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tbhawksfan
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Libid21 wrote:I agree. Acie Law has a scoring type of mentality, and in college, he didn't really have that great of skills in terms of passing the ball. He gave people open shots, but that's because of his threat to score any where on the court.
Right; I've seen it happen so many times with young PG's. He can play, they just want him to play their way. It's better to let him be himself, progress and be coached. The improved confidence will do wonders for his shot and rhythm.
I'd love for Acie to be ready to take it to em by early next season.
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NDaATL
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tbhawksfan wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Alrite I'll ask, why is it ironic for him to make that comment?
I'm not positive either, but it's probably in reference to me liking Crittenton before the draft. I was always a Law fan as well though, I just didn't remember him being that quick in college.
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JoshB914
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IV has some skills, but if we expect to make the playoffs we need to be cautious with his minutes. I can understand being positive about him as a rookie because he has that quick first step. But there is absolutely no way you can try to claim he has played well this season on either side of the ball. AJ is playing quite well for us and Lue can produce situationally when we need perimeter scoring. I want to see IV develop too but we can't give minutes to a guy just to develop him when we are in a playoff race. Maybe that is something we would have done hte past few seasons when we were around 10 games under .500 right now.
Anyone who thinks IV has played well THIS year and deserves more minutes is crazy. Yes he has the quick first step but he has very poor court vision (otherwise he'd have way more assists because he can get into the lane). He has also played weak defense (he's getting hand checks and off the ball fouls constantly) and looked out of control at times. We need to give AJ the bulk of the minutes and use Lue and IV situationally.
Anyone who thinks IV has played well THIS year and deserves more minutes is crazy. Yes he has the quick first step but he has very poor court vision (otherwise he'd have way more assists because he can get into the lane). He has also played weak defense (he's getting hand checks and off the ball fouls constantly) and looked out of control at times. We need to give AJ the bulk of the minutes and use Lue and IV situationally.
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tontoz
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tbhawksfan wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Alrite I'll ask, why is it ironic for him to make that comment?
On another board we argued at length about the importance of speed at the point guard position last summer. He relentlessly tried to downplay the importance of speed (Acie tested much faster than Crit) but i am sure he probably forgot about it.
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tbhawksfan
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I'm not just talking about minutes; I'm talking about them getting in his head and trying to mold him into their vision of a Hawks PG instead of letting him define what he is going to be as the Hawks PG.
In time you will have both. I just think the development will go faster if he is allowed to go out there and kick it his way no matter how many minutes he's getting.
In time you will have both. I just think the development will go faster if he is allowed to go out there and kick it his way no matter how many minutes he's getting.