Amare?

evildallas · Post #1 » by **evildallas** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:57 am

Rumors are that Phoenix wants to deal either Shawn Marion (likely) or Amare Stoudamire.

While I respect Marion, I have no desire to trade for him especially since it would take an extension probably to get him to agree not to use him ETO. Amare is a different matter. As much as I like Al's potential, Amare is a best right now.

My question to floor is would you trade for Amare and if so what would you offer? Remember he won't come cheaply (meaning that Al would have to be part of the deal).

Hawks · Post #2 » by **Hawks** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:52 am

I wouldn't trade for Amare. Al is a keeper.

JoshB914 · Post #3 » by **JoshB914** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:10 am

Phx have no idea what they're doing. They wont trade anyone. They've been so tight on the Marion stuff (just waiting for a perfect offer) that they've had to basically give away their picks every year.

They had a chance to become a title contender by swapping KG for Amare on draft day and completely screwed themselves.

Harry10 · Post #4 » by **Harry10** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:04 pm

PHX should trade Amare for KG

.... no but seriously, i think an Amare for Okafor would be a good trade. PHX needs a defense center more than another scorer, and Bobcats could use the publicity.

conleyorbust · Post #5 » by **conleyorbust** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:50 pm

Harry10 wrote:PHX should trade Amare for KG :D

.... no but seriously, i think an Amare for Okafor would be a good trade. PHX needs a defense center more than another scorer, and Bobcats could use the publicity.

Amare for Oak? It would help a lot on D but they lose a whole load on offense. I guess they did pretty well that season that Amare missed though.

Rip2137 · Post #6 » by **Rip2137** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:55 pm

The suns know exactly what they are doing. They aren't going to trade either one of the guys. THey never were going to trade AMare, but they were going to trade Marion. Marion vetoed going to Boston so there you are.

I thought they should have traded Amare for KG, but they were trying to trade Marion for him.

But they are still one of the top3-4 teams in the NBA, they are fine.

JoshB914 · Post #7 » by **JoshB914** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:45 pm

The Western Conference goes through Tim Duncan. With Amare at Center Phx can't do it. The Suns have a 2-3 year window to win a title with Nash running the show. They were extremely arrogant to think that they could just stand pat and wait for the perfect deal for Marion, and to refuse to give up Amare for a far superior player with a better contract. It has become very clear that they will not beat the Spurs in a 7 game series yet they make absolutely no changes.

Does Sean Marion have a no trade clause in his contract? I can't seem to find that anywhere.

Rip2137 · Post #8 » by **Rip2137** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:10 pm

I don't see how anyone could come out that series last year thinking one team was clearly better than the other.

Especially when

A: The Suns best player missed alot of the important possessions down the stretch in game one due ot a busted nose and they lost(but nothing you can do about that...thats basketball. Stuff happens)

B: A convict called a good 7-8 horrible calls in one game. Most of them making sure Amare stayed glued to the bench.

C: The suspensions

Last year, they could have won, or the Spurs could have won. pretty even matchup that was basically for the championship.

This year, the only thing that has changed is that they are A: Better with Grant Hill at the SF and B: Missing Kurt thomas, although he didn't do anything they aren't getting out of Brian Skinner right now.

You are watching a team cruise through the regular season, just like the Spurs have for the past few years. They are at the point that they realize that the regular season doesn't mean as much. And they are still either near or at the top of the Western conference.

While Amare still sucks on the ball defensively, he has become a smarter and better weakside shotblocker which will be helpful come playoffs when he is matched up with Skinner in the front court.

Raja is playing his way back into shape, so is Barbosa after his elbow surgery. The suns are going to be fine.

And Marion doesn't have a no trade clause but he can opt out after this year. Boston and Minnesota wouldn't take the trades because he said that he would opt out if traded there thus they would be giving up a franchise player to rent Marion for a year.

I personally wanted the KG for Amare trade because KG is better defensively, although not nearly as dominant offensively as amare can be, but he is no slouch. I mean, i understand their pausing because of the age difference, but still. ugh.

And you would have to get the perfect deal for Marion. As much as you see the importance of Josh Smith to this team, Marion is a better player than Josh.

Josh is a better ball handler and shotblocker. Marion is a better rebounder, shooter and can defend all 5 positions. You don't just dump his salary. you need to get some of those skills back and there was/is a short list of players that would fit the bill there.

That said, I would advocate a Marion/Josh sign and trade this offseason. Niether team loses that much, and it definately makes the Hawks better, and makes the Suns better somewhat with additional shotblocking.

killbuckner · Post #9 » by **killbuckner** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:28 pm

I believe Kobe bryant has the only no trade clause in the NBA. (well- charlie bell also does until the end of the year) Some players have trade kickers that would let them veto trades if by waiving their trade kicker is the only way to make the deal go through. I believe with Marion he simply said that he would opt out of his contract if he were traded which was enough to get the celtics to drop the idea

NDaATL · Post #10 » by **NDaATL** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:33 pm

^ Marion for Josh Smith is not a good deal for the Hawks, Josh is almost as good (if not just as good) as Marion and he's 8 years younger. I guarantee 95% of Hawks fans would turn that down. Meanwhile PHX would trip over their feet wanting to do this deal.

If Josh Smith was playing with Steve Nash in the best offense in the NBA I'm sure he'd put up better offensive numbers as well.

JoshB914 · Post #11 » by **JoshB914** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:01 pm

The Amare suspension claim is not valid to me. He broke a rule and the Suns still blew a 15 point lead in the game without him.

They will not beat SA if they cannot stop Tim Duncan. No matter how much better they are if they cannot stop him, they can't beat the Spurs in my opinion. There was no reason for them not to get KG, none at all.

Rip2137 · Post #12 » by **Rip2137** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:22 pm

NDaATL wrote:^ Marion for Josh Smith is not a good deal for the Hawks, Josh is almost as good (if not just as good) as Marion and he's 8 years younger. I guarantee 95% of Hawks fans would turn that down. Meanwhile PHX would trip over their feet wanting to do this deal.

If Josh Smith was playing with Steve Nash in the best offense in the NBA I'm sure he'd put up better offensive numbers as well.

The Hawks would get better defensively, better on the boards and Marion is a better shooter and off the ball offensive player. Josh should be striving to be as good as Shawn Marion one day.

We are talking about a guy that just two years ago had a 5-6 game streak of 30 points and 15 rebounds. If Josh did that once every two weeks we would be happy.

Alot of Marions points come from midrange shots. Not exactly Joshs fortay.

Don't get me wrong, Josh woudl be great in phoenix, but I think you are underrating Marion a little there. All atlanta would lose is some shotblocking.

Rip2137 · Post #13 » by **Rip2137** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:26 pm

JoshB914 wrote:The Amare suspension claim is not valid to me. He broke a rule and the Suns still blew a 15 point lead in the game without him.

They will not beat SA if they cannot stop Tim Duncan. No matter how much better they are if they cannot stop him, they can't beat the Spurs in my opinion. There was no reason for them not to get KG, none at all.

How is it not a valid claim? It happened. I mean If you think I am saying it he shouldn't have been suspended(which I am not) then thats one thing, but I am saying that it affected the series.

And Duncan left the bench in the 2nd quarter which I think is where the complaints about it comes.

I am saying that in that series one team wasn't better than the other team. They play Duncan straight up so he would have big numbers, sure, but at the same time, the Spurs couldn't stop Amare. The suns had some games they contained parker and some where he went off, but Parker couldn't contain Nash.

They match up well and the Spurs ended up winning in 6 games but all of what I said above actually happened, so I think you would be hard pressed to say that the Spurs just beat the Suns and it was cause the Suns couldn't matchup with Duncan. Busted noses, crooked refs and suspensions all did play a part in this series.

Fooberman · Post #14 » by **Fooberman** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:09 pm

I'm amazed that the talk is almost always about Phoenix trading Marion:

1) The Sun's window is Nash's. There is no reason to think longer term than that.

2) The Suns need defense (which Marion plays and Amare doesn't). They can give up a little offense.

3) I think they'll get more out of Diaw with Amare out of the picture

4) Amare is worth more in trade

5) Marion is incredibly versatile, letting the Suns go with a lot of different looks. Amare is versatile only in the sense that he can indifferently defend the 5 as well as the 4.

So why not use Amare to unload Banks, get a defensive 5, and add a depth player? That makes more sense for the Suns to me...

conleyorbust · Post #15 » by **conleyorbust** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:25 pm

Josh, I have to disagree with you. That series didn't make a solid case that the Suns couldn't beat the Spurs. It was easily the best series of the playoffs and by far the most controversial. Saying that Amare and Diaw shouldn't have been kicked is one thing but saying that it could have been a different series is another. Even more shady was the game where Amare fouled out, there were some EXTREMELY questionable calls and no calls in that game (which incidently was refereed by a guy in jail for fixing the games he reffed). I'm not saying the Suns are a better team but I am saying they can play the Spurs... they did have a 15 point lead in the game without Amare and Diaw but its hard to maintain the energy they were playing with when you lost your starting and backup C.

Rip, you are oversimplifying to a huge extent. Marion may be better at Smith but he would certainly not be better for this team. Smith can create his own shot, Marion can't, simple as that. Smith's shotblocking is worth more than Marion's perimeter defensive ability. Marion is a better rebounder which would help but his offensive effeciency and output would drop greatly if he came here, possibly to below his pre-Nash level because even then he had a better point guard.

As far as Amare for Horford? I doubt PHX does that because Horford isn't a good enough defender to make that worth it *yet*. Oka is a possibility because both guys are injury risks but his value is pretty low right now... they lose a lot on offense too.

JoshB914 · Post #16 » by **JoshB914** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:29 pm

Exactly fooberman, which is exactly why they should have dealt Amare. As you said, the time period for a title is Nash. And it will come down to defense if they can win a title which Amare doesn't provide. Adding Grant Hill does not stop the Spurs from slowing the game down (as they have in the playoff series' between them) and beating the Suns.

Rip I didn't mean to imply that the suspensions didn't effect the series. I meant to say that the Spurs were simply a better team last year. And the Suns saw that when they blew that big lead in the game Amare was out.

Harry10 · Post #17 » by **Harry10** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:41 pm

conleyorbust wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Amare for Oak? It would help a lot on D but they lose a whole load on offense. I guess they did pretty well that season that Amare missed though.

i don't think offensive production would go down for the suns.... because the suns are still able to score well over 100, when Amare is hurt and not in the line up.

but anyway, neither of these teams need to make a trade..... but if PHX wants to win a championship, they need to trade Nash before Amare.

HoopsGuru25 · Post #18 » by **HoopsGuru25** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:46 pm

Harry... Amare is a monster in the playoffs though. When the game slows down you need a player who can create his own shot and Amare has been their best offensive player by far when it counts. Okafor and Marion can't create their own shot which would really hurt them come playoff time. They need a two way big man and they really screwed up by not doing that 3 way trade to land KG.

conleyorbust · Post #19 » by **conleyorbust** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:48 pm

Harry10 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

but anyway, neither of these teams need to make a trade..... but if PHX wants to win a championship, they need to trade Nash before Amare.

Wow, I really disagree with that. Nash makes that team go. Unless they are gonna get Chris Paul, there is no way that team runs with anywhere near the same offensive efficiency without Nash. Amare has a bright future but that team is messed up without Nash.

JoshB914 · Post #20 » by **JoshB914** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:56 pm

Harry10 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

i don't think offensive production would go down for the suns.... because the suns are still able to score well over 100, when Amare is hurt and not in the line up.

but anyway, neither of these teams need to make a trade..... but if PHX wants to win a championship, they need to trade Nash before Amare.

WHAT