Is Joe Johnson. We said before the season that if Marvin steps up and becomes a solid #3 option and Smoove continues on his road to stardom we would be dangerous. Well both of those guys have not just reached those levels, they have surpassed them. Marvin has shown the ability to get to the rim, and Smoove has become a star at 22 years old. We've even had the additional help of Horford giving us the toughness we need inside.
Meanwhile, JJ is averaging 21 PPG. But he's doing it on 41% shooting AND putting in major minutes. So basically JJ is shooting the ball a ton (still at 21 PPG with horrendous shooting), logging a ton of minutes (so he's screwing us on offense for almost the entire game), and his defense has also been well below what it was.
Everyone talks about the boost Dre Miller will give us (and they are right), but we are ignoring the boost that we would get from our "star" if he had even come close to resembling one this season.
The reason we're losing
Moderators: dms269, HMFFL, Jamaaliver
The reason we're losing
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JoshB914
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tontoz
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Stupid post. Against Portland JJ took only 4 more shots than Brandon Roy but scored twice as many points. He also got 7 assists with no turnovers.
Loss
So far this month JJ is shooting 44% from 3. On the season his TS% is down only 3.2% from last year while his assists are up and his turnovers are down.
But of course he gets all the blame.
Loss
So far this month JJ is shooting 44% from 3. On the season his TS% is down only 3.2% from last year while his assists are up and his turnovers are down.
But of course he gets all the blame.
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HoopsGuru25
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The reason we're losing is because we are the dumbest team in the league. Joe's poor shooting is alot more explainable than Marvin handing the ball to Denver after a rebound or Josh Smith deciding to double dribble and double team players like Kenyon Martin and Anthony Carter while leaving his man wide open for a dunk. If you go back and watch almost any game(w/ the exception of the Blazers game) this season...you will see 5-6 turnovers where we basically gift wrap the ball to the other team.
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conleyorbust
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No one here is really wrong, although I disagree with the semantics of the original post. tontoz is right that Joe had a good game but we still lost, but it doesn't account for the fact that Joe hasn't had as good of a season as usual and that game we lost was an overtime thriller against a better team. Hoopsguru, you are right that we have a young team that makes mistakes but I'd like to point out that Denver actually had more TOs than we did last night so I wouldn't go so far as to say that is the reason we lost or are a losing team right now. Also, what is the reason for Joe's poor shooting, if you have any insight I'd like to know?
I think the common theme of our win streak was that Joe had his best stretch of play over those games. This team's offense is still built around that guy and thus it has a much bigger effect than anyone else when his play fluctuates. I don't think it's the reason we are losing, but it is the reason we haven't won as much as we should have with the personnel we have.
I think the common theme of our win streak was that Joe had his best stretch of play over those games. This team's offense is still built around that guy and thus it has a much bigger effect than anyone else when his play fluctuates. I don't think it's the reason we are losing, but it is the reason we haven't won as much as we should have with the personnel we have.
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Rip2137
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Instead of having one guy that could consistantly give you over 20 points a game, we have 3 now.
However, the offense is still built like we have one guy that can do it.
And Joe has been horrible. Points smoints.
I remember watching Tracy McGrady put up 62 points in Orlando. I was there and rememeber telling a friend "he still looks like he isn't even trying" and not in the "He is so good, he scored 62 without trying" kind of way. In the, he obviously is sulking even though he is scoring kind of way.
I think you would be hard pressed to say that Joes demeanor this year and his overall effort has been the same as last year. Having a good game shooting wise doesn't change what type of effort and deameanor you are showing in the game, and if I can see it, his teammates can see it too and that effects the team.
Talk about Josh turning the ball over all you want. next time he turns it over, watch what Josh Smith does. Then watch what Joe does when he turns it over. Joe stands there. Josh goes and tries to make a play or get back on D. That is what the team leader and superstar of a team is supposed to do. You aren't getting that from Joe.
He is still holding the ball too long and letting the double team get to him. If he makes a quick move, it will get the offense going. that was the difference between the wins and losses. If he holds the ball and does nothing andkicks it out to Smith at the shotclock, guess what? the stats say that Joe didn't have a bad trip down the floor. But he did.
Josh gives it up 3.5 times a game. Joe gives it up 3.6 times a game. Josh gets 2 steals and almost 4 blocks a game on the other end. Joe gives you almost one steal. Not saying its okay to turn the ball over if you get it back...but Josh gets it back.
Does Josh need to drop the turnovers? Sure. So does Joe. He has had multiple 5 and 6 turnover games this year(not as many as Josh but still). But I would rather have a guy that goes all out all over the floor turning it over than a guy that goes all out about once a week turning it over.
Under no circumstances should a rookie be giving more effort than the max contract having "superstar" on the team, but it is happening on a nightly basis.
However, the offense is still built like we have one guy that can do it.
And Joe has been horrible. Points smoints.
I remember watching Tracy McGrady put up 62 points in Orlando. I was there and rememeber telling a friend "he still looks like he isn't even trying" and not in the "He is so good, he scored 62 without trying" kind of way. In the, he obviously is sulking even though he is scoring kind of way.
I think you would be hard pressed to say that Joes demeanor this year and his overall effort has been the same as last year. Having a good game shooting wise doesn't change what type of effort and deameanor you are showing in the game, and if I can see it, his teammates can see it too and that effects the team.
Talk about Josh turning the ball over all you want. next time he turns it over, watch what Josh Smith does. Then watch what Joe does when he turns it over. Joe stands there. Josh goes and tries to make a play or get back on D. That is what the team leader and superstar of a team is supposed to do. You aren't getting that from Joe.
He is still holding the ball too long and letting the double team get to him. If he makes a quick move, it will get the offense going. that was the difference between the wins and losses. If he holds the ball and does nothing andkicks it out to Smith at the shotclock, guess what? the stats say that Joe didn't have a bad trip down the floor. But he did.
Josh gives it up 3.5 times a game. Joe gives it up 3.6 times a game. Josh gets 2 steals and almost 4 blocks a game on the other end. Joe gives you almost one steal. Not saying its okay to turn the ball over if you get it back...but Josh gets it back.
Does Josh need to drop the turnovers? Sure. So does Joe. He has had multiple 5 and 6 turnover games this year(not as many as Josh but still). But I would rather have a guy that goes all out all over the floor turning it over than a guy that goes all out about once a week turning it over.
Under no circumstances should a rookie be giving more effort than the max contract having "superstar" on the team, but it is happening on a nightly basis.
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conleyorbust
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The wierd thing about this season compared to last is that it seems like Joe has still had his "big" games this season. He's had enough 30 point games where he goes to the line a bunch and knocks down a bunch of 3 pointers. He just mixes those in with way more 12 point games. People will always hold Joe to a higher standard because he was brought here to be "the guy" on offense. The consistency is what has been lacking, not necessarilly the averages. I thought he was over it but it hurts the team more when he has an off game because he is the focal point, we just don't expect him to have those types of off games after the last couple of seasons.
I think the team should be able to weather the games Joe plays poorly in but we don't have a good point guard and our big man depth has been terrible so we ride with him.
I think the team should be able to weather the games Joe plays poorly in but we don't have a good point guard and our big man depth has been terrible so we ride with him.
Re: The reason we're losing
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HMFFL
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Re: The reason we're losing
JoshB914 wrote:Is Joe Johnson. We said before the season that if Marvin steps up and becomes a solid #3 option and Smoove continues on his road to stardom we would be dangerous. Well both of those guys have not just reached those levels, they have surpassed them. Marvin has shown the ability to get to the rim, and Smoove has become a star at 22 years old. We've even had the additional help of Horford giving us the toughness we need inside.
Meanwhile, JJ is averaging 21 PPG. But he's doing it on 41% shooting AND putting in major minutes. So basically JJ is shooting the ball a ton (still at 21 PPG with horrendous shooting), logging a ton of minutes (so he's screwing us on offense for almost the entire game), and his defense has also been well below what it was.
Everyone talks about the boost Dre Miller will give us (and they are right), but we are ignoring the boost that we would get from our "star" if he had even come close to resembling one this season.
Joe can shoot the ball all night long for all I care. The problem is he's being double teamed and no one on our team is taking the pressure off him, not even Josh Smith is able to do this. Our opponents know we don't have any shooters outside of Joe and Marvin. Why bother doubling up anyone else?
Joe only has 20 ore more attempts this month during two games.
December: 7 times and we won 9 games. 6-1 when Joe had 20 attempts of more.
November: 6 times but still a brutal month for the entire team.
Here is a post that I started a week or so ago. While I have 20 attempts listed for Joe, I would really like to see it between 20-25...or more! The problem is he needs to get some open looks and he's not getting any help.
Current Attempt Averages:
Joe Johnson 18.7
Josh Smith 14.4
Marvin Williams 11.1
Many of us have said numerous times that Marvin should be our second option behind Joe. I still feel Marvin should attempt closer to 15 per game, but maybe our offensive plays aren't designed for our players to increase their attempts, so maybe I'm asking for too much, but at times I see many of our players standing around on the 3 line draining the time waiting for someone else to create.
The attempts I would like to see:
Joe Johnson 18-20
Marvin Williams 14-15
Josh Smith 12-14
Al Horford 10
Link
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conleyorbust
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HMMFL, I'm gonna have to disagree to an extent. As I said, Joe has been a lot less consistent this season. Many of the nights we lose he shoots a pretty low percentage... I don't mind him taking 25 shots if it's like the Portland game where he is gonna knock down a good chunk of them... I wouldn't have wanted him taking 25 last night when he was doin' some heavy duty clankin til we took the ball out of his hands.
That correlation you showed in December where we played so well - the 3 games we lost that he didn't have 20 attempts in? Among them was a 2-10 effort and a 6-18 effort... his two worst shooting nights of the month. The third was a 7-18 shooting night but he knocked down quite a few 3s.
The point there is that Joe takes more shots when his shot is dropping and we have a better chance of winning games if Joe makes a lot of jumpers. The reason we lose a lot when he has fewer than 20 shots is because he has had a lot more games where he goes 4-16, 5-17, 6-18 or so.
Josh shouldn't be getting the ball at the end of the shotclock when he is on the perimeter. We saw it again last night and it was ugly but that is what happens on the nights when Joe's J is off because he starts slowing down and dishing it without enough time on the clock.
Marv should be taking more jumpers but for some reason he isn't as likely to make a play as Josh.
That correlation you showed in December where we played so well - the 3 games we lost that he didn't have 20 attempts in? Among them was a 2-10 effort and a 6-18 effort... his two worst shooting nights of the month. The third was a 7-18 shooting night but he knocked down quite a few 3s.
The point there is that Joe takes more shots when his shot is dropping and we have a better chance of winning games if Joe makes a lot of jumpers. The reason we lose a lot when he has fewer than 20 shots is because he has had a lot more games where he goes 4-16, 5-17, 6-18 or so.
Josh shouldn't be getting the ball at the end of the shotclock when he is on the perimeter. We saw it again last night and it was ugly but that is what happens on the nights when Joe's J is off because he starts slowing down and dishing it without enough time on the clock.
Marv should be taking more jumpers but for some reason he isn't as likely to make a play as Josh.
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JoshB914
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JJ was double teamed last season, and the year before that. Why is he suddenly shooting like Larry Hughes? The double team argument doesnt fly with me, we know he is still capable of producing with all that attention.
Smoove, Marvin, and Horford have all added elements that we have never had before as I said earlier. JJ has had more help than he has ever had by far this season.
Yet he is having easily his worst career season to date. He's been absolutely awful. He shoots a low %, isn't hitting from three, is turning the ball over, and is playing bad defense. He cried for help in the preseason, and he got it and then some. Now he is playing terrible, and not just by his standards, shooting 41% is bad for anyone.
Smoove and Marvin will make mistakes, they are 21 and 22 years old. JJ is not supposed to make the same kind of miscues of them. Supposedly he is our team captain and vet leader. Yet we can't win on the road, blow leads, and have to deal with him wasting away on the floor. Yet he is doing it just as much if not more.
We've got three page threads complaining about our backup center (Zaza). Yet we all ignore our "all star" having an absolutely pathetic season in every way possible.
Smoove, Marvin, and Horford have all added elements that we have never had before as I said earlier. JJ has had more help than he has ever had by far this season.
Yet he is having easily his worst career season to date. He's been absolutely awful. He shoots a low %, isn't hitting from three, is turning the ball over, and is playing bad defense. He cried for help in the preseason, and he got it and then some. Now he is playing terrible, and not just by his standards, shooting 41% is bad for anyone.
Smoove and Marvin will make mistakes, they are 21 and 22 years old. JJ is not supposed to make the same kind of miscues of them. Supposedly he is our team captain and vet leader. Yet we can't win on the road, blow leads, and have to deal with him wasting away on the floor. Yet he is doing it just as much if not more.
We've got three page threads complaining about our backup center (Zaza). Yet we all ignore our "all star" having an absolutely pathetic season in every way possible.
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conleyorbust
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JJ hasn't been THAT bad, he has been inconsistent which is why his averages are down even though he has had good games. The fact that we don't have a coach, a bench, or a point guard means that too often if Joe's game is off it hurts the team because he is the first option most times down the court and when he is off the guys lose direction. He gets the ball and gets a little scared to shoot and the ball gets kicked out late, etc. Joe has had more of those off games this season, and it is more vivid because last season the guys who are doing big things this season weren't as good.
I think if we had a better point guard it would help a lot on those nights because we would be pushing the pace a lot more (allegedly) which would give Smith, Marv, and Hofo more high % looks and it would take the ball out of Joe's hands in the half court and allow him to operate without as much pressure when he wasn't feeling it.
I think if we had a better point guard it would help a lot on those nights because we would be pushing the pace a lot more (allegedly) which would give Smith, Marv, and Hofo more high % looks and it would take the ball out of Joe's hands in the half court and allow him to operate without as much pressure when he wasn't feeling it.
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tontoz
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JJ was double teamed last season, and the year before that. Why is he suddenly shooting like Larry Hughes?
Hughes is averaging 9 ppg shooting 33.5%. Very intelligent comparison.
Yet he is having easily his worst career season to date. He's been absolutely awful. He shoots a low %, isn't hitting from three, is turning the ball over, and is playing bad defense.
JJ is shooting 36.2% from 3, is turning it over less than he has since he has been here, is shooting better from the ft line than he ever has and his TS% is down only 1.4% from his first season here.
But then you never did care about facts. It is much easier for you to just make stuff up and pretend it is fact.
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JoshB914
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You call 41% inconsistent? That is BAD. His PER this season is also well below years past. Antoine Walker shoots in the low 40's, people. I'm not crediting anything to inconsistency. JJ has been simply bad. Anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves.
We haven't had a PG, a coach, since JJ has been here yet he put up good numbers. And now that he is getting more help around him than ever he is putting up numbers that are bad by anyones standards!
I feel he has been very poor defensively. He lets guys get around him and our perimeter D has not been that good this season. I'm not so knowledgeable on what are the best defensive stats to use, but he is allowing one of the worst effective FG% of the guys in our rotation.
We haven't had a PG, a coach, since JJ has been here yet he put up good numbers. And now that he is getting more help around him than ever he is putting up numbers that are bad by anyones standards!
I feel he has been very poor defensively. He lets guys get around him and our perimeter D has not been that good this season. I'm not so knowledgeable on what are the best defensive stats to use, but he is allowing one of the worst effective FG% of the guys in our rotation.
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tontoz
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JoshB914 wrote: His PER this season is also well below years past.
Again you show how clueless you are. JJ's PER is higher than any season he had with the Suns and is only 1.27 below his first season here.
he is putting up numbers that are bad by anyones standards!
I see your understanding of basketball is on par with your understanding of English. You don't understand what words like "never", "always" and "only" mean so i guess i shouldn't be surprised at anything you write.