Blaming Woody is a cop out

[JoshB914]

I'm not the biggest Woody fan, but people need to stop blaming him for everything. We are not a good basketball team. This is true not because of Woody, it's because the team assembled has too many holes. Great coaches like Pat Riley and Phil Jackson (last year) can't even win without the horses. Meanwhile, bad coaches like Doc Rivers are involved with winning teams. PERSONNEL is the most important element in winning and losing, and we don't have the right kind to compete consistently.

We are missing several key ingredients that all good teams have. A steady number one option that steps up in the clutch, a point guard, depth, and toughness.

If we fire Woody at the end of the season that's fine. But seeing the bulk of the blame go towards him after seeing our PLAYERS collapse like that is insane.

[killbuckner]

I don't at all think that its Woodson's fault- I maintain that trading for Andre Miller would help the team FAR more in the standings than firing the coach will. But at this point I am fine with Woodson being fired just so people here can't stay in denial about the flaws on the roster. Woodson (and the refs) are blamed after every loss, once you take away woodson then maybe people will start looking at the roster construction.

[tontoz]

I'm not the biggest Woody fan, but people need to stop blaming him for everything.

When the team makes the exact same mistake over and over and over it is definitely the coaches fault.

The Hawks scoring has been much higher in the first half than in the second. Why? Because they push the ball up the floor and move the ball around in the first half.

In the second half that stops. They slow it down and stop passing and the offense bogs down.

If that is not a coaching issue then what is? You might as well say Woody isn't responsible for anything that happens on the court.

[tontoz]

I don't at all think that its Woodson's fault- I maintain that trading for Andre Miller would help the team FAR more in the standings than firing the coach will. But at this point I am fine with Woodson being fired just so people here can't stay in denial about the flaws on the roster. Woodson (and the refs) are blamed after every loss, once you take away woodson then maybe people will start looking at the roster construction.

In the 2 portland games the Hawks scored 106 pts in the first half, 87 in the second. Do you think the hawks roster is different in the second half of games?

[killbuckner]

I think that the PG is the one that determines the pace of the team. Most of what people blame woodson for really falls at the feet of the PG. In reality the Hawks have just one guy on the team who can consistently drive and draw a doubleteam- unfortunately that player is also their only real threat from outside.

And I think that if the Hawks had a big lead at halftime and they were still trying to run (even though they don't have a good PG and are a poor rebounding team) then you would be on here blaming woodson for that.

[smabie]

So here's the question, kb:

Do you honestly believe that Woodson would let Andre Miller run this team the way that you seem to believe that he would?

You're argument in favor of Miller is that he would ignore Woodson and do it "the right way" anyway (something which I disagree with you about, btw, but that's a subject for a different topic).

Except here's the problem with your solution: Woodson has shown a history, from day 1 and still doing it, of playing only "his" guys, and if someone doesn't play the way he wants them to play, then he doesn't play them. As bad as you argue that the PG play was during November from Lue (agreed) and AC (agree to a much lower degree), AJ wasn't allowed to play at all, and in fact apparently got so pissed off at Woody that he left a game during shootaround and went home, and (unlike the Zaza situation), never got punished for it.

Woodson plays who he wants to play. And he would play AC and Mario before he'd play Miller, if that's the way he decides to handle it.

[killbuckner]

smable- my argument is not at all that Miller would ignore woodson. I think that the Hawks simply have lousy PG's and the offense that Woodson wants would work much better with a real PG. It would make Johnson far more effective from outside. Would MASSIVELY help Childress who doesn't create his own shot. Marvin would be getting the ball in better position. Josh Smith could be left to attack the back of the rim as MIller is the best alley oop passer in the game and Smith wouldn't be handed the ball at the 3 point line.

I think that Woodson is trying to do the best with the players he has available. He has no PG, no post game, and just one player who can consistently drive and draw a double team. It simply limits the options available on offense. Just putting a real PG on this team would make everything run much smoother. But with the roster as its currently constructed I don't really see that any coach would make much of a difference. But like I said- go ahead and fire woodson just so that people here can see that the offense is still bad- maybe they will start looking at the players at that point.

[tontoz]

I think that the PG is the one that determines the pace of the team.

AJ doesn't call the plays. he runs the plays that Woodson calls.

I don't think AJ all of a sudden decides to slow it down time and again in the second half.

[tontoz]

smable- my argument is not at all that Miller would ignore woodson. I think that the Hawks simply have lousy PG's and the offense that Woodson wants would work much better with a real PG. It would make Johnson far more effective from outside. Would MASSIVELY help Childress who doesn't create his own shot. Marvin would be getting the ball in better position. Josh Smith could be left to attack the back of the rim as MIller is the best alley oop passer in the game and Smith wouldn't be handed the ball at the 3 point line.

None of this addresses the disparity between the Hawks offense in the first half and second half.

[killbuckner]

I absolutely think the PG's are the ones that decide to push on the break or pull back. Honestly when the PG gets an outlet pass you think his first look is over to the bench to see if Woodson is giving a thumbs up or thumbs down!? ridiculous.

[tontoz]

I absolutely think the PG's are the ones that decide to push on the break or pull back. Honestly when the PG gets an outlet pass you think his first look is over to the bench to see if Woodson is giving a thumbs up or thumbs down!? ridiculous.

If you actually watched the games you would know that the fast breaks aren't started by the pg half the time.

INthe first half the Hawks were even pushing it after made baskets at times. That stopped in the second half.

[killbuckner]

tontoz- I don't have any stats for whether the Hawks actually score significantly more points in the first half compared to the second half over the course of the season. If you have that broken out then lets see it. I am guessing that you are just focused on a small sample size of a couple games where other games it was flipped and it pretty much balances out overall. But I don't have any stats on that- lets hear what you are basing this opinion on.

[evildallas]

Andre Miller couldn't play better than AJ did against Portland last night. We were unable to penetrate late in the game meaning we needed to hit contested jumpers while they hit layups. That indicates a problem with personnel.

If you've watched this team throughout the year, you should have released that we weren't going to be able to penetrate in iso situations like that. It would have a greater chance of success to continue to run the offense and move the ball around to create a shot instead of giving it to our best player and say okay win us the game. That indicates a problem with coaching.

Our players don't know how to close out games and neither does our coach. We have a flawed roster yes. It needs fixed for sure, but so does the coaching. Some people yell for that to happen right now. I'm like to think that I'm a little more practical in that I realize it probably wouldn't help this season except maybe to get the players attention so they realize the ownership is serious. However when off season comes, let me just say I'll be holding off renewing my season tickets until I find out Woodson's status.

[tontoz]

tontoz- I don't have any stats for whether the Hawks actually score significantly more points in the first half compared to the second half over the course of the season. If you have that broken out then lets see it. I am guessing that you are just focused on a small sample size of a couple games where other games it was flipped and it pretty much balances out overall. But I don't have any stats on that- lets hear what you are basing this opinion on.

I already pointed out the Portland games, which you obviously didn't watch.

Off the top of my head the Hawks scored 65 and 69 in the first halves against Denver and Chicago, then played keepaway in the second halves and couldnt score at all. In one of thoes games the Hawks had 24 fast break points in the first half, none in the second.

Anyone who has watched the games can see that the Hawks slow it down when they have a solid lead in the second half. If they are behind then they will attack.

AJ doesn't call the plays. He is not the one who decides to slow it down and stop moving the ball around in the half court set. That is Woodson's call.

[killbuckner]

Tontoz- like I suspected you are simply recalling a couple games that stand out in your mind and ignoring the rest of the season- thats why you live in a little dreamworld that is unconnected to reality. You don't have any desire to base your opinion on facts and you just block out all facts you find inconvenient to focus on the things that reinforce what you already believe. (its called confirmation bias) Have fun in your little dreamworld- you have shown time and time again that you aren't interested in facts.

[killbuckner]

But honestly if the Hawks were out there still pushing the pace when they had a 15 point lead and the hawks lost then people would be on here complaining about that. Thats why I agree that its probably time for Woodson to get fired- just so the fans need to start looking for someone else to blame.

[tontoz]

Tontoz- like I suspected you are simply recalling a couple games that stand out in your mind and ignoring the rest of the season- thats why you live in a little dreamworld that is unconnected to reality. You don't have any desire to base your opinion on facts and you just block out all facts you find inconvenient to focus on the things that reinforce what you already believe. (its called confirmation bias) Have fun in your little dreamworld- you have shown time and time again that you aren't interested in facts.

As usual you are completely simpleminded and clueless.

You want to look at season long stats as if that has any relevance to anything. The hawks have been behind in the second half a great deal of the time so Woodson hasn't had a lead to protect in many games, therefore he didn't implement his slowdown strategy.

Yet in your simpleminded view you think season long stats will have the answers. it doesn't work like that. Watching the games is where you see the problems, which go back to last season.

The Chicago and Denver games were the most obvious examples because they were on consecutive games and the Hawks had huge leads in both. The problem also cropped up in both the Portland games.

There are plenty of other examples of closer games but it is pointless to look them up because you won't pay attention anyway. It is much easier to say "show me seasonlong stats" because in your simpleminded view you think stats show everything.

[smabie]

Yeah, kb, tontoz never looks at facts. Like the fact that AJ has a higher rate of assists per minutes played than Miller. Or the fact that AJ has a higher number of 3pt FGs made, and a significantly higher percentage, than Miller. Or the fact that AJ's Assist-to-TO ratio is twice that of Miller's.

Yeah, gotta love people who ignore the facts, don't you?

[NDaATL]

It's very obvious KB doesn't watch the games. Anyone who has a pair of eyes knows that we completely slow down the pace EVERY time after getting a big lead. We start playing "not to lose" EVERY TIME. There is absolutely nothing false about that. So much for Mr. "Objective"

[tontoz]

It's very obvious KB doesn't watch the games. Anyone who has a pair of eyes knows that we completely slow down the pace EVERY time after getting a big lead. We start playing "not to lose" EVERY TIME.

Exactly.

And the funny part is the Mr Objective thinks that a season long comparison between the first half and second half would have some relevance, as if the Hawks had solid leads in every game.