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Joe Johnson: 3-13, 0-3 3pt, 4 ast, 3 turnovers.

And we lose by 4. That is the reason for our loss. And that is the reason for so many close losses this season. I'm as sick of talking about this as you are of listening to me about it, but it is an OBVIOUS trend that has gone almost completely unnoticed. How can you win games when your All Star hasn't played a good stretch of ball all year long?!

It's so easy for people to blame the Coaching staff and GM instead of the actual players on the court. Even when Josh Smith has a bad game it's hard for some fans to accept it and blame him.

I'm waiting for the consist Joe to show up for us and put this team on his back. If the J's not falling he needs to drive inside...hell drive inside anyway!

The consistent JJ isn't coming and I've given up. We've played over half a season and he has been terrible for the vast majority of it. I'm sick of waiting for him to step up his game.

Teams have learned how to force JJ to take shots he wouldn't normally have to take.

He's a 2nd option, not a 1st, but that's life as a Hawks' fan, I'm afraid.

I think I've just come to learn that if his jumpshot isn't falling, he doesn't have much to fall back on. Well his jumpshot hasn't been on a majority of this season.

It's on him to drive it to the basket, which he didn't do again tonight against Detroit. Superstars learn how to get points even when their shot isn't falling, but Joe just keeps on shooting. He had several opportunities to take it to the rack tonight but settled for the shot.

What just kills me is that if this team just had a PG like Andre Miller so much of what fans blame woodson for would just magically fix itself. Joe would bet set up more from the outside for open looks. Marvin would be getting the ball in better position. Josh would be able to attack the back of the rip for alley oops and wouldn't be getting the ball at the outside with the shot clock running down. Chidlress would benefit as much as any player in the league from playing with a true distributing PG. And Horford's offense would just have to be improved.

I am fine with woodson being fired just so fans stop having that scapegoat to blame and will have to start taking a hard look at the roster construction.

Billy Knight doesn't think our point guard rotation is a problem. And Billy has proven time and time again that he knows all.

LL Cool Scott wrote:Billy Knight doesn't think our point guard rotation is a problem. And Billy has proven time and time again that he knows all.

That's Billy!

Joe's been bad, I hope its cuz he's injured. For the most part I think people have accepted that Joe isn't himself this season, the reason we bring up Lue/Woody stuff is because those are things that can be fixed. Its easier to say we need a new point guard and we can't stop being aggressive when we have a one point lead with 3 minutes left than it is to say we need Joe to play better. No one can do anything about Joe's play except Joe himself. If its a mental thing than he needs to get his head right but if he is injured (as has been hinted to by teamates) he needs to rest for a while and get his shot back.

I agree with KB that having a point guard would make things a lot smoother. We would be able to slow it down more effectively because a real point guard wouldn't be pressured so easily and could make a play without killing the clock.

I don't blame Lue for his basketball ability. Its not like he doesn't try; I blame BK for having us in this position.

By the way, Marv has been pretty awful for a stretch. I remember he was injured too, anyone know anything about that?

Substitutions, use of talent, play calling, pace controlling...

Please. I have watched and learned the sport of basketball for over 20 years now and without pause I will say that Mike Woodson is the worse in game basketball coach I have ever seen at the NBA level.

Ever.

George Karl pretty much has Anthony Carter as his point guard and has to move his start shooting guard over to point to make it work and they are winning. San Antonio has been playing most of this season with Jacque Vaughn as their point and they are winning.

I like Antonio Daniels, but since I remember alot of you calling him trash in another thread, he has been the point guard for another playoff team.

Team after team after team in the NBA have week point guard rotations depending on the strength of their other positions.

does the roster need tweeking? Yes. But at the same time, we have the WORSE coach in the NBA. I don't care what records say, he is the worse coach in the league and like I said, I don't think I have ever seen anyone worse than him.

Firing woodson wouldn't solve all our problems, no, but it sure the hell would help some.

Yes, Joe was horrible. But who said "I have one guy with near 30 points and has been unstoppable all game and another guy who is playing horribly...lets go with the horrible playing guy down the stretch."

On the subject of Joe, when people think we should be winning more because we have Joe and Josh, they are neglecting the fact that Joe isn't very good this year (PER a little above 15, meaning he has been statistically average).

Anyway, lets hope that he sits for the ASG and gets himself together.

All that being said, to say that we would be better if Joe was playing like he can is true. Still, its not a change we can make now. We can still install a real point guard so I think any talk about how terrible our pg rotation is is valid.

COB- How is the JJ thing not fixable? We've seen what he can do and that is what makes this season all the more pathetic from him. If he is not goign to fix it then I don't want him here.

Lue has been the same shoot-first PG his entire career. We know what we are getting. JJ however, has gone from a borderline AS to a bum.

How many close games have we lost with JJ wetting the bed? I don't eve want to think about it. Talk about trades, coaching, Lue, Zaza all you want. But if JJ is himself we have at least five more victories under our belt and no one is calling for a PG trade.

If Joe was playing like he did last year and we had 5 more victories, I would still be asking for a PG and still advocating an off season coaching change. AJ and Lue have played over their heads this year and that still isn't that good. As the season wears on there will be more nights when they return to normal form. That's an achilles heel in need of a band aid. Woodson hasn't shown me anything to believe that he can get us where I want to go. Five more wins doesn't change that.

I think 5 is low balling it. We could have another 10 wins at least right now if Joe wasn't playing like trash.

Seriously, we are improved at every single position in the game excpet the two guard where we have regressed big time.

I have no problem with having a bad year, but Joe is still trying to force shots and demand the ball despite being horrid. That is hurting us. Alot.

Couldn't agree with you more Rip. JJ has been bad enough, but the way he has gone about it (still firing up shots, not giving full effort on defense, refusing to pass out of double teams) has been what's really killed us.

Evil, if we are sitting at 27-22 right now you would still want to make a deal? I don't think it would be worth taking on another contract. And as Rip said, +5 wins is probably a low number.

I understand what you are saying and I agree that we would have a winning record if Joe was playing as well as he could. I just don't think you can trade a guy like Joe unless get a really good deal or you know the problem isn't going to be fixed by rest.

If we could trade Joe for Jose Calderon and Anthony Parker, I'd consider it because that might make us a better team even if Joe was at peak form. However, if we traded him for Mike Miller or something and Joe quickly returned to form because he's been injured all season, we made a stupid decision.

Since this team has never been particularly open with the fans, we don't know what the problem really is. We do know that he was worse after he came back from injury last season and that his leg has been hurting this season. I don't know if I trade him because he has a leg injury.

Holding Joe static, you, me, and most thinking Hawks fans have wanted a point guard trade for ages. Whether or not Joe was healthy/playing to form, Lue and AJ would still suck and Law still wouldn't be ready.

I'm not giving Joe a "free pass" here. I readily admit that if he was playing better we would be a much better team. I'm also going to reserve judgement on him until I have confirmation that he hasn't reaggrivated his calf which would throw off his shot, make him hesitant to drive, and hurt his lateral movement on D.

While I reserve my judgement on him, I can point out that we could easily be a better team if we had a real point guard. Again, its not "blaming Lue", its blaming Billy Knight.

You can go back and read the threads too, I was one of the more vocal critics when he came out and bashed the team. I said he had to play like a star to act like one. I still think it and I still don't like his attitude. It just looks like his leg is bothering him when he plays which would account for the jumper being off so much more than usual.

I would still want a PG. But if we were 27-22 I wouldn't really care. Why take on that extra salary when we're going to make the playoffs anyway?

I agree with Rip; Woodson is the very worst in game coach; ever.

JoshB914 wrote:I would still want a PG. But if we were 27-22 I wouldn't really care. Why take on that extra salary when we're going to make the playoffs anyway?

Well there is no point in arguing over this but its because a) it wouldn't cripple us long term to get a better point guard (because almost anyone qualifies) b) it has been a long standing need and c) it could end up being a net gain because if we were to get a pg during the summer we'd still be paying his salary, this way we would at least have a chance to get extra playoff revenue.

I have always thought that getting a quality pg was more important than any other need we had (I assumed Joe would be fine). Thats why I wanted us to get MCJ and trade the 11 or trade the 11+Chil for Calderon.

JoshB914 wrote:
How many close games have we lost with JJ wetting the bed? I don't eve want to think about it. Talk about trades, coaching, Lue, Zaza all you want. But if JJ is himself we have at least five more victories under our belt and no one is calling for a PG trade.

Granted JJ wasn't able to seal the deal in some games, but...

How many close games have we lost with WOODSON wetting the bed? I also don't even want to think about it. If we had a slightly better head coach we could have at least five more victories as well.

If JJ is injured, which i think he is, we'll have a very hard time if we keep depending on him finishing teams off. Coaches don't get injured, so I blame Woody more than others, he's just stupid the vast majority of the times when we're winning by 5+ points.

FIRE WOODSON NOW!