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I think Woodson needs to be fired...but people forget that the most important thing is who replaces him. This is why I always laugh when teams celebrate the firing of their coach only to realize that the coach who replaced him(Jim Boylan,Eric Musslemen,Randy Witman,the Bucks new coach,etc)is even worse. Firing Woody mid-season will not help our win total this year assuming he's going to be replaced with some one from our weak coaching staff. I'm not going to be excited about a coaching change until they bring in a proven coach.

I have said it many times, go ahead and fire him because he has just become the scapegoat for everything that goes wrong with the team when they lose. People aren't going to take a hard look at the players until the coach is changed so they might as well get someone else in there. Woodson is going to take a ton of blame over the next 8 games without regard to the fact that its just a really tough stretch of schedule. BUt he is in pretty much a no win position so they might as well make a change.

Good article but at this stage it is pointless. Woodson is going to be the HC for the rest of the season or until the Hawks are officially out it.

So my question here is: do you guys think that BK/ASG have been looking for and contacting new coaches?

Is it gonna be a 2 in 1 deal where they can BK and Woody?

Last night was a perfect example of Woody's cluelessness. Horford picks up his 5th with 7:26 left in the 4th quarter and the Hawks down 8. Woodson pulls him for Zaza.

WTF are you saving Horford for with the Hawks down 8 with 7:26 left? Let him play and if he fouls out then you are SOL. But bringing in Zaza is a disaster waiting to happen.

Sure enough Zaza immediately commits a turnover, walking while trying to call time out. Then Brad Miller puts a jump hook (which he never shoots) right in Zaza's face.

Woodson then pulls Zaza out 28 seconds after he put him in. Great coaching there.

There are so many examples like that it is a joke.

So my question here is: do you guys think that BK/ASG have been looking for and contacting new coaches?

Well I know BK isn't since Woody is his friend but hopefully the ASG is.

Is it gonna be a 2 in 1 deal where they can BK and Woody?

I honestly think Woodson has no shot at returning if we don't make the playoffs. The owners will be pretty mad if they went out and spend $14 million for a pg only to struggle in the pathetic East. I think BK should have been fired last year after it was clear bricked one pick(Marvin)and completely airballed the next(Shelden). I just can't see him getting fired if he didn't after 2006...all his moves were just huge failures(Speedy,Shelden,Lo) and he still kept his job. I would literally replace him with just about anybody(even a stat geek like Houston did).

HoopsGuru25 wrote:

I would literally replace him with just about anybody(even a stat geek like Houston did).

What do NBA GMs do with most of their time? What do you need: a) managerial skills b) transactional skills c) an eye for talent.

It looks, by the way our coaching staff has been run, the deals he has made (other than Bibby), and the drafting, that he has none of those things. I'd like to put evildallas in charge of the team, let killbuckner be his assistant GM, and have LL Cool Scott as a consultant. At least evil has an MBA, kb would be a good director of scouting, and LL is a pessimist which always helps.

Billy Knight hasn't done a bad job at drafting talent. He has done a bad job of putting the team around Woodson that Woodson wants. Which is wierd seeing as Woodson is his hire too.

I like when people always say Woody is the scapegoat though. This is like having a blind guy driving a car with a flat tire. The tire will still be flat if someone else is driving but at least you can drive slowly to the service station. With the blind guy, you are just going to keep running into stuff.

Sure, this team isn't perfect and could use some tweeking. But that doesn't change the fact that one of the Worse coaches ever(and I am not talking about record, I am talking about actual in game coaching) is coaching this team. Firing Woody won't get you a championship, but firing him would be eliminating one HUGE problem.

Rip- we just see it differently. Before the bibby trade I think it was like blaming the driver when he had no steeringwheel. for the next 8 games its going to be like blaming the driver when he is in a geo and he is racing against a muscle car. But like I keep saying- go ahead and make the change just because so people stop blaming the coach for everything that goes wrong.

conleyorbust wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
What do NBA GMs do with most of their time? What do you need: a) managerial skills b) transactional skills c) an eye for talent.

It looks, by the way our coaching staff has been run, the deals he has made (other than Bibby), and the drafting, that he has none of those things. I'd like to put evildallas in charge of the team, let killbuckner be his assistant GM, and have LL Cool Scott as a consultant. At least evil has an MBA, kb would be a good director of scouting, and LL is a pessimist which always helps.

I thank you for your support. While I have no shot at a GM job (I don't have the credentials to be taken seriously), I think I do possess a few qualities that BK doesn't that would be helpful.

#1 I realize that I don't know everything and will listen to and evaluate other opinions. Yes, I can and would work with killbuckner and LL Cool Scott. Don't get me wrong I'm confident and have my own opinions, but it is foolish to ignore good counsel.
#2 I would be thorough and turn over all the stones. I wouldn't have shut down workouts after 2 sessions to be sneaky and draft a guy #5 based on he was on TV a lot in college.
#3 I am not overly biased toward 1 position in my talent evaluations. I would have realized that each role has importance in building a complete team.

I'm sure if the Atlanta Spirit actually got over their love affair with BK that they'd find hundreds of better candidates than BK for the job with actual credentials willing to take on the job.

Now if the Atlanta Spirit ever want to get serious about marketing, merchandising, or promotion drop me a line and we'll talk.

I was only half joking, I think that there are quite a few non-basketball professionals that could do better than BK as a GM. Coach, no probably not. GMing though, you don't need to have been a basketball player to be successful at that. Buford, the Colangelo's, Donnie Nelson... none of those guys were pro players.

killbuckner, I understand your sentiment there but I don't full agree. I think that a lot of the losses we suffered in the past were unavoidable due to personnel problems. However, I think you often neglect obvious coaching errors. Now I agree that without a suitable replacement, there probably isn't any point in changing coaches, but I also think that you need to look at the healthy medium between placing too much blame on the coach and not expecting enough from him.

Woody has never shown himself to be particularly good at any aspect of coaching. He isn't a good tactician, that much should be obvious to anyone that watches how our offense is run. He doesn't make successful "in game" adjustments, that has been pointed out by supporters of his (Sekou) and himself (mentioning that he forgot guys on the bench). He also doesn't successfully motivate the team, or for that matter, get along with many of his players.

The NBA runs on talent but the difference between Phil Jackson and Doug Collins was huge. The difference between Sharman and all the guys that came before him was huge.

Not saying we can get a coach of that caliber, just saying that its just as silly to ignore the value of a good coach as it is to ignore the flaws of a bad roster.

COB- I just think that with no PG and no post game that any coach would have looked bad here. Because in the end people focus on their disagreements with the coach after a loss. I don't think that Woodson has done a great job by any stretch of the imagination at all. Actually I am sympathetic to BK's idea of stockpiling highly skilled guys in the 6-8 to 6-10 range. But really I just don't think that Woodson had much of a chance to succeed here.

Poor play out of the primary ballhandler is going to make the coach look bad. Realistically JJ was supposed to be the primary ballhandler but the Hawks quickly learned that wasn't a good role for him. Of course then BK brought in speedy. (a move where I was one of the few people here to come out strongly against at the time btw) We all know how that worked out. I think that its absolutely impossible to judge a coach when he has the worst PG's in the league.

I have said that I am fine with Woodson getting fired. I don't think he has done a great job. But I also think that at some point he will get another headcoaching job and when he has a better put together roster then he magically will look like a better coach.

Fair enough, my expectations are too high also. Woody isn't an inovator by any stretch of the imagination but in a lot of ways neither are Sloan or Larry Brown.

While I'd like to see something more innovative with a crew of tall athletic guys (utilizing matchup problems in the post with Joe/Josh/Marv), I understand why Woody couldn't implement it. I also understand that it is harder than it seems to manage a bench and successfully run an offense as a coach. The problems with motivation however, rest almost entirely on Woody, a coach who has had far too many clashes with his players. The problems with player (non) development should also rest on Woody. For example, it isn't really fair to criticize Woody for not playing Salim this season, but it is fair to criticize him for having a young player go through a significant regression under his watch.

COB- I agree that woodson isn't an innovator- he is a solid defensive coach who put in a traditional offense. But it still amazes me that people think that BK was trying to build a phoenix style team. (we are looking pre-bibby here) Seriously its a team with just 1 legitimate threat from 3 point range. You don't bring in Lo Wright and Speedy Claxton if you want to be a phoenix style team. Shelden williams with the 5th pick makes even less sense if you want to be a phoenix style team.

I think that with BK he just saw a team with a bunch of holes and has generally tried to draft the BPA regardless of position. He just hasn't had a ton of luck determining who the best player would be. The 2 times he has deviated from this philosophy and tried to draft for need were Shelden and Acie and I really dislike both of those picks.

Ok - I'm no big fan of Woodson. BUT - head coaching is by far the most overrated aspect of an NBA team's success. Nothing matters more than the talent on the floor. NOTHING. Who put the (lack of) talent together for this franchise?

If you disagree - look at the careers of every major successful head coach. Look at how they fared when they did and did not have a good roster to coach. Pat Riley, Larry Brown, Phil Jackson, Lenny Wilkens, George Karl, Greg Popovich, Jerry Sloan, Don Nelson, etc... If you want a clear example this year - look at Doc Rivers.

conleyorbust wrote:I'd like to put evildallas in charge of the team, let killbuckner be his assistant GM, and have LL Cool Scott as a consultant. At least evil has an MBA, kb would be a good director of scouting, and LL is a pessimist which always helps.

Thank you, but I must politely decline. I don't play well with others and will accept a backseat to no man. LL does not consult. LL wears the pants.

killbuckner wrote:COB- I agree that woodson isn't an innovator- he is a solid defensive coach who put in a traditional offense. But it still amazes me that people think that BK was trying to build a phoenix style team. (we are looking pre-bibby here) Seriously its a team with just 1 legitimate threat from 3 point range. You don't bring in Lo Wright and Speedy Claxton if you want to be a phoenix style team. Shelden williams with the 5th pick makes even less sense if you want to be a phoenix style team.

I think that with BK he just saw a team with a bunch of holes and has generally tried to draft the BPA regardless of position. He just hasn't had a ton of luck determining who the best player would be. The 2 times he has deviated from this philosophy and tried to draft for need were Shelden and Acie and I really dislike both of those picks.

Fair enough. I can agree with the assertion the BK's personnel mistakes, then panic moves, have hurt the team's record more than Woody's coaching possibly could. Still, I'll stand by what I said about Woody's biggest shortcomings. There have been too many fourth quarter meltdowns and completely unispired performances. Woody has to get these guys to play for him, we don't have any "cancers" on our team... in fact the one guy that is supposed to be a problem (Smith) is by far and away the fieriest competitor.

LL, I'm sorry to hear that. I'll put the position back up on monster.com.

in fact the one guy that is supposed to be a problem (Smith) is by far and away the fieriest competitor.

Off topic but Salim has some of the worst body language I've ever seen but isn't good enough to be a cancer. He almost got kicked off the team for having such a poor attitude at Arizona. I don't remember the last time I saw him clap on the bench after a made basket. I remember when Chil made that huge dunk on VC and everybody on the bench was going crazy and Salim was just sitting there as if nothing happened. I seriously think he could care less if we are winning if he's not playing.

There have been too many fourth quarter meltdowns and completely unispired performances.

It's also the way we blow the leads...We got big leads by running and Woody will slow the game down and let the other team get back in the game. We've lost games with big leads against New Jersey, Portland,Detroit,Charlotte,and we have let other teams come back in the game and give us a scare by milking the clock with the lead. The only games I think Woody's coaching won us was the 1st game against Miami and the Orlando game. I believe our huge home/road win differential and how bad we are at holding leads has something do with coaching.

A bad coach tries to get a bunch of guys to play to his particular system.

A good coach forms a bunch of guys into a team, and then tries to get them to play to his particular system.

A great coach takes a bunch of guys, forms them into a team, and then bends his system to fit what he has to work with.

Woodson is a bad coach.

Rivers is a good coach -- last year aside, he did a decent job in Orlando a few years back, and was actually expected to be named Spurs HC back in '98-99, before they went on the run that ended up propelling them to the title.

Brown is a great coach. Problem with the Knicks was that the guys in question wouldn't ever become a team. But given his results in SA, Indiana, Detroit, LA, etc...

Coach K in Duke is the same way. He doesn't recruit by specific positions or style. He recruits what players he can, and then makes his system fit the players.

Woodson is doing none of that. All during the pre-season, he and everyone else went on about having the team run-run-run. Take advantage of the team's speed and athleticism and mismatches in size and speed at various positions. Minimize the issues of inexperienced PG and C by staying out of the half-court sets....

Gee, look how well they followed that plan, hmm?

Woodson needs to be fired. BK, despite certain peoples' opinions, its still too early to say, because he does -- IMO, anyway -- have an eye for talent, and (a) is more responsible than anyone for the success Memphis had before they switched conferences, (West just reaped what BK had sowed, and then destroyed it), and (b) is a helluva lot better GM than Pete Babcock, who is more directly responsible for the teams woes than BK or even Woodson.

Given that:
(1) The Hawks have no draft picks, and thus have nobody to draft, and no need to focus on college scouting;
(2) The Hawks have no salary cap space, and thus have no potential FAs to focus on scouting;
(3) The Hawks have only to re-sign a couple players and see who's left after the draft to try to recruit, both of which have to wait until July;
(4) The trade deadline's past, so nobody needs to be scouted or negotiated...

Since that means that the Hawks GM -- BK, nominally -- actually has nothing else to do, and since this was the team he drafted/traded for, and he said this could be a great team...

Let's put BK in charge. Just like Waddell, except for the fact that Woodson doesn't have multiple years left on his contract to pay when they fire him, like Hartley did. Fire Woodson, hand the keys to BK, and either he can show that he has some idea of what the hell he put together, since Woodson obviously doesn't know, or he can be unemployed this summer, and the Hawks can use the otherwise uneventful summer to hire a competent pair for GM & HC.