Steve Belkin was right....

[fo_o_fo_404]

I woke up this morning, and I had what many would call an epiphany.

I realized that through the midst of what we know as the ASG, the one member who stood alone and wanted no part of the Joe Johnson deal (which essentailly started this whole legal fiasco) was Belkin.

At the time, I was like, who the hell is this guy? Ruining all the spirit around the Atlanta Spirit? There he was....extending an friendly handshake to BK during legal proceedings and getting totally dissed.

The bottom line for me is this: Was the Joe Johnson deal a bad deal for the Hawks knowing that Phoenix would not and could not match the $70 million price tag? Phoenix, for all practical purpose had just extended Nash and Marion to max deals and Amare was due to re-up. There was no way Phoenix was going to have four players under max deals. Belkin understood this and tried, unsuccessfully, to block this deal.

But the thought entered my mind....what if the Joe Johnson deal never happened?

It was Belkin's belief that you build a rebuilding team through the draft. Successful teams seem to get the draft process right. And giving up 2 first rounders and a player (Diaw) and $70 million was too much for Belkin to water down and swallow. One of the first round picks for Phoenix turned out to be Rajon Rondo...and I'd say he's improving by the game.

JJ is a good player. But what you gave up to get him here, to me, was a bit much. JJ has reached his ceiling and you won't get a franchise turned around with this guy face on it.

But I feel that the Belkin vision, now, in retrospect, was probably the best vision of them all. Well, at least we know this much....had Belkin got his way, BK and Woody would have been gone after the 2004-05 debacle season.

And under Belkin's vision, I hate to admit this....but I feel that our team would be more successful than it is now.

I bet Belkin's somewhere laughing his ass off saying "I told you mo-fo's!"

Where Art Thou David McDavid? He got the ultimate screw job of them all. Raw and no vaseline!

[Sultanofatl]

you assume way too much.......

you can't play the what if game because then the variables change.......with no Joe Johnson and the money we had who's to say we don't over pay for some other free agent? You can't. Perhaps Belkin blocking that trade makes it impossible for us to do business again?

[conleyorbust]

Yes and no. I don't disagree with you that we overpaid for JJ, but its hard to know how long it will take for young guys to be ready even if you draft the right one. A 26 win season is weak but the 13 win season before it was unprecedented and would probably happen again if we didn't snag Joe.

Beyond that, what would we do with the money if we didn't sign Joe to that contract? Who else could have helped us? No, the biggest issue and the one that will haunt this franchise for the next 12 years, was passing on Chris Paul. Not to rub it into our collective faces but a core of Paul, Joe, and Josh + whoever we acquired to fill it would already be an elite team.

[HMFFL]

I don't even feel like touching on Joe Johnson trade and Belkin. However, I will reply to the below quote.

Where Art Thou David McDavid? He got the ultimate screw job of them all. Raw and no vaseline!

Many question marks about David McDavid and if he can handle an ownership job. He was denied several times before the talks started with Atlanta. On the other hand, I believe he was thrown to the side, but it was probably best that it happened. The ASG has now shown they plan to spend money, but the true test will be if both Joshes return, so it's still a question mark if the ASG is willing to go all out and far beyond the cap to make this team a true contender.

Take into consideration how young this team is and by next week they could be going towards the right direction once again. I still smell the playoffs and that's all that needs to happen for the Belkin talk to be zipped up.

IMO, the person to trust the most is Dominique himself, and I like to go by his reaction to things. You can also ask him nearly anything he can will be upfront about it. I once discussed with him Chicago being favored by 9 points and he flat out told me he's not shocked. From my understanding he was on the ASG and Billy's side with any of the Belkin issues.

[Rip2137]

Once again, Phoenix not only was planning on matching the deal, they called Joe Johnson and told him they were going to match it. Joe then asked them not to match because he wanted to leave.

the Suns got rid of Q Richardson's contract so Joe would have his position guarenteed and they were GOING to match. Marion probably would have been traded earlier also, but they were going to keep Johnson as they saw him as the starting 2 guard, back up point guard, back up SF and could defend 3 positions with regularity and was shooting a incredible percentage.

Joe was going to be their guy, not Marion. Instead he said he wanted to go and that is where the deal came from. Don't be confused, if they had not put that deal on the table Joe would still be a sun or traded to someone else willing to pay the price.

And please remember that Belkin had no problem with Joe, just how much was being given up for him. I understand his thought process. Diaw a non protected first should have been enough honestly.

[HoopsGuru25]

The Hawks not signing Joe outright was a mistake but that trade really has/had no effect on the future of this team. Diaw is now a bad contract(who didn't play on the Hawks)and we lucked out and kept our 07 draft pick. It looks like Phoenix is going to get a pick much lower than they expected at the time they made the trade. Rondo's a nice player but trading the pick to get him(I believe 20?)wasn't nearly as dumb as taking Shelden at 5. The ASG has gone out and spent money on Joe,Zaza,Speedy,and Bibby in the past 3 years so my only complaint is that they haven't fired the GM(assuming they re-sign Smith).

Losing three mid-late 1st round picks is really not going to change the fate of a franchise. It was a dumb sign and trade but it really doesn't matter in the big picture because BK wasn't dumb enough(fortunately) to leave the 07 pick unprotected. At the very least the move wasn't bad enough to go through almost 3 years of this ownership dispute. The two moves that will eventually stop the Hawks from being elite are passing on two consecutive rookie of the years/all-stars when they were both right on the Hawks' radar.

[killbuckner]

Rip has never understood the concept that SAYING you will match is free and there is no reason not to. The Clippers said they would match any offer to Lamar Odom and Andre Miller. Why would you ever say anything else!?

[HoopsGuru25]

Once again, Phoenix not only was planning on matching the deal, they called Joe Johnson and told him they were going to match it. Joe then asked them not to match because he wanted to leave.

This was made up by the Suns at the time. This was confirmed by Joe in the pre-season. The Suns weren't going to give a max contract to their 4th best player especially when the owner sells draft picks and sells players(Kurt Thomas,James Jones)just to meet his budget.

[killbuckner]

And though I have been a big critic of that trade because I don't think there is any chance it would have been matched, the Hawks winning the lottery last season certainly did make it much more palatable. IF the Hawks had lost Mike Conley because of the trade it would have been a ton worse. If they lose a pick in the 15 range of a weaker draft then it just isn't nearly as bad.

[evildallas]

It wasn't a smart trade, but the trade itself didn't hurt. It made us live in fear for several years for what the 2nd pick would be. As it turns out a late first rounder, Diaw, and next years pick have not come close to what Joe has given the team. You can argue that signing Joe to the max at all was a mistake for several reasons, but I would say that is hindsight and recency issues. I also believe the ownership divorce would have happened ultimately over something if not Joe.

[Harry10]

I woke up this morning, and I had what many would call an epiphany.

I realized that through the midst of what we know as the ASG, the one member who stood alone and wanted no part of the Joe Johnson deal (which essentailly started this whole legal fiasco) was Belkin.

i don't know where you got this from.... Belkin was not against getting Joe, he just didn't want to give up a draft pick for him.

Joe is loosing favor with me, but i do have to admit, at the time, he was a much better signing than Michael Redd, or Larry Hughes.

[HoopsGuru25]

Harry I think at the time...Joe was probably considered the the 4th best free agent SG with Allen,Redd,and Hughes being the top 3. I think people agreed that Joe was not a max contract player when he signed the contract(think Ben Gordon) but I think he actually deserved a max contract based on what I saw from him last year. He has regressed this year but I think alot of that has to do with the calf injury he had last March. You never know...Carlos Boozer took over a year to recover from a hamstring injury(people actually accused him of faking it).

[conleyorbust]

Harry I think at the time...Joe was probably considered the the 4th best free agent SG with Allen,Redd,and Hughes being the top 3. I think people agreed that Joe was not a max contract player when he signed the contract(think Ben Gordon) but I think he actually deserved a max contract based on what I saw from him last year. He has regressed this year but I think alot of that has to do with the calf injury he had last March. You never know...Carlos Boozer took over a year to recover from a hamstring injury(people actually accused him of faking it).

Yeah the dollar amount of the contract doesn't really bother me because, to my knowledge, the ASG hasn't ever considered make another big splash and we haven't ever been in the running for another player worth that much money (thank god we didn't sign Curry that summer, by the way).

The only reason we might be crippled is because almost every move from that point until now (with the possible exceptions of Horford and Bibby) has turned out terrible.

[D21]

I woke up this morning, and I had what many would call an epiphany.

I realized that through the midst of what we know as the ASG, the one member who stood alone and wanted no part of the Joe Johnson deal (which essentailly started this whole legal fiasco) was Belkin...

i don't know where you got this from.... Belkin was not against getting Joe, he just didn't want to give up a draft pick for him.

Joe is loosing favor with me, but i do have to admit, at the time, he was a much better signing than Michael Redd, or Larry Hughes.

I don't think "fo_o_fo_404" was talking about "no deal at all" but the deal ATL chose to complete.
fo_o_fo_404, can you confirm it please ?

IMO, doing the JJ/70M deal was right (a little high, but necessary) this team needed a face like Joe, but the final deal was stupid.

[Rip2137]

Rip has never understood the concept that SAYING you will match is free and there is no reason not to. The Clippers said they would match any offer to Lamar Odom and Andre Miller. Why would you ever say anything else!?

Lamar Odom literally begged the Clippers to not resign him and let him go to Miami in the national media. He wasn't doing that for show. Its one thing to say you are going to match any offer. Eligin Baylor looked at the Heat offer and said we are matching THAT offer, just like we matched Maggette's and Brand's. I don't remmeber them saying they were going to match Andre Miller.

The first slight in the history of Shawn Marion becoming a b!tch was when the management said that they felt they could win a championship with the core of Amare, Nash and Joe. I KNOW that pissed him off. Mostly because he had just wet the bed in the series against the Spurs when they needed him to step up after Joe broke his face.

D'Antoni also called Joe the most important guy on the team which also pissed off Mr sensitivity. That offseason started with the Suns rumoured to be trying to deal marion, after they dealt Richardson, so that they could have a line up of Thomas, Amare, Joe and Bell with Nash.

The Suns management and team liked Joe Johnson more than they liked Marion. The suns did say they would match any offer. Then they pointed directly at the Atlanta offer and said "We are going to match this offer." There is no reason to believe that they weren't. People can say they were blowing smoke up peoples ass, but Joe was the glue to that team that had just won the most games in the league and they really believed that losing him was the difference in that matchup with the Spurs.

Its not so much they were going to match Joe and keep that team together. Marion would have been gone that year for a upgrade at center or draft picks and used the space to keep Steven Hunter.

[HoopsGuru25]

http://www.hawksquawk.net/forums/showfl ... o=&fpart=1

"I had a few teams come at me that summer and they backed out because Phoenix put the word out that they were going to match anything," Johnson said. "A lot of teams were like, 'Why take a chance on Joe Johnson when you're not going to get him anyway.' And all along, Phoenix wasn't going to match. They were just scaring teams off. They didn't scare Atlanta off. The Hawks stayed in there. I'll always remember that."

[smabie]

So, does that mean, HG, that you believe that a team's management tells their players all the truth, all the time? You're saying that, without a doubt, that Phoenix went to JJ and said, "We're just blowing smoke up their @$$es, we have no real intention of trying to keep you. Don't tell anybody." Is that what you're saying, HG?

[killbuckner]

hadn't ever seen that quote before- thanks HG.

[Skyhawk1]

You get turned down by E. Dampier and K. Martin. You have the worst team in the league. Your fan base is close to non existent. You're talking about rebuilding a team. Tell me how many players wanted to come here. NOT EVEN ONE. Then you have the chance of your life to trade for a guy that can play multiple positions, one of the most versatile players in the league, and the most important thing that any Hawks fans should always remember, JJ wanted to be a Hawk. All you got to give up is a fat lazy ass that was avg. 4 ppg and two first round picks with some protection and you tell me this wasn't good for the Hawks. I've been a Hawks for about 5-8 years. Before moving up here from my country, I was crazy about the Knicks. I still think there's nothing like the MSG and that atmosphere. But I've learned to love this team, and one thing that gets on my nerves about this franchise is its negativism. If you read around this forum, even the fans are more concerned in finding mistakes than really supporting the team. I do not know why things are like that here. I'd assume it's got a lot to do with the losing years. Anyway, it's a shame that a team that's getting better step by step has to deal with this past ghosts that seem to insist in flying over this team.

[HoopsGuru25]

So, does that mean, HG, that you believe that a team's management tells their players all the truth, all the time? You're saying that, without a doubt, that Phoenix went to JJ and said, "We're just blowing smoke up their @$$es, we have no real intention of trying to keep you. Don't tell anybody." Is that what you're saying, HG?

Joe didn't say that they had no intention to keep him. Phoenix WANTED to keep JJ ,but they weren't willing to spend the MAX on him..it's that simple. The whole point of saying that they would match any offer is so teams didn't waste their time signing Joe to a max deal and they could get him for significantly less. The Hawks WERE willing to pay $70 million but they were too stupid to sign him outright. Therefore they gave up the picks and Diaw for no real reason. This is really a non-issue now because we kept our 07 pick but the trade was still one that didn't need to be made IMO.

If the Suns were willing to pay the max for Joe then he would probably still be on the team(the other issues like wanting to play pg are a distant second). The reason he was mad at the Suns is because they didn't give him an extension the previous summer(which would have been a good deal in hindsight)and they still lowballed him again when he was a restricted free agent.