Hawks are giving up 109.5 ppg

[tontoz]

since the Bibby trade. That is just a staggering number considering that the defense wasn't bad for most of the season. I can't blame it all on Bibby, especially since he is hobbling, but it is tough to watch.

With Shelden and Blo gone that forces us to play Zaza more and he blows. Acie is out and he is our best defender at the point.

[HMFFL]

Blame Woodson!

Seriously, these players need to take blame, and perform at the level we know they can on both ends of the floor.

[dms269]

Sounds like my hawks team in a sim league. The only difference is that we are winning and have won 3 straight SE conference titles and made it the EC finals twice.

But that number is pathetic. Whenever Horford comes out we take a hit, whether it is Zaza coming in or Woodson shifting Smith to the 5, Marvin to the 4, and playing Chill at the 3.

[raleigh]

Giving up points is the cool thing to do when you're in your early 20's like most of the Hawks, right?

[JoshB914]

We aren't even putting forth much effort on defense. That's what bothers me the most. These guys are pros and they don't give up a crap on the defensive end.

[HoopsGuru25]

I'm really disappointed in Josh Smith...I saw significant improvement in his game between December-Feburary but it seems like his man to man defense has really fallen off(due to effort)and he's resorting back to shooting jumpshots. Bibby also is a huge liability unless he's on fire because opposing pg's can get to wherever they need to go agaisnt him.

The Hawks aren't using their athleticism to their advantage anymore..before it seems like we always forced alot of turnovers and always scored off those turnovers but that hasn't been the case recently. We don't make any adjustments either..no zone defense..no full court pressure...no nothing. Our defense is basically back to 05-06 status(with the Harrington/Zaza front line). Hopefully this changes with a new coach next year.

[evildallas]

While I could blame Woodson and the players, I'm going to blame ownership on this one. The players have either through exhaustion or through malice quit playing defense. The coach seems unable or unwilling to do anything about it. I suspect he's afraid to lose whatever support he has left within the roster if he played hard ball. A confident coach would have already sent a message to the starters by playing the players who want to play right long enough to get their attention. We have an obvious lame duck coach hoping to slip into the playoffs by coaxing his starters to the finish line. Ownership should have never let it get to this point by either canning this crap coach or the GM to let the players know there are consequences to playing like this. People in power in sports are rarely allowed to reach the end of their contract because this losing of the players is often the result. Better to buy out a season than watch a team self destruct under a desperate lame duck.

The owners are playing a very dangerous game as they risk a crop of young players (Josh, Josh, and Marvin) further developing that losing stench that haunts their habits until they wind up on different teams with better leadership. We went through that already this decade with Jason Terry. He had the stench of a loser until he got to play in Dallas as the 3rd or 4th option behind strong leadership. It is reminiscent of what the Bulls went through before Paxson arrived as GM. Crawford, Curry, and Chandler developed that taint and it was clear that the Bulls weren't going anywhere with them on the team regardless of their personal talent. Chandler has been resurrected by going to a team with a leader. The other two are with the Knicks, which says it all.

[D21]

Opponent 3pts in last 4 L:

Warriors: 17/32 (53.1%)
Hornets: 15/29 (51.7%)
Bobcats: 9/17 (52,9%)
Magic: 15/28 (53,6%)

Since the trade, opponent FG% is 48.1 (certainly worst in the league) and opponent 3pts % is 40.9 but it was OK between the first game and the BOS one.

Opponents make also more FGA now.

In December, opponents FGA average is 77 FGA/game, with 15 3ptsA.
Since the trade, 87.7 FGA and 21.2 3ptsA.
We run more, we loose more. Maybe it's not the right moment to start to run, and with all these little injuries, it could be better to play slower.

[killbuckner]

I wish there was a way to look at pace factor for the hawks since the trade. I wonder if part of this is the Hawks trying to play at a little faster pace now that they have a PG and just getting the corresponding increase in easy baskets the other way..

[tontoz]

I wish there was a way to look at pace factor for the hawks since the trade. I wonder if part of this is the Hawks trying to play at a little faster pace now that they have a PG and just getting the corresponding increase in easy baskets the other way..

The Hawks were 4th in the league in fast break points before the trade so....no.

[killbuckner]

fast break points and pace factor are far different things. Right now the Hawks are 17th in pace factor- I don't believe there is any way to look up what they were before the trade but I had thought that they were significantly lower.

[tontoz]

fast break points and pace factor are far different things. Right now the Hawks are 17th in pace factor- I don't believe there is any way to look up what they were before the trade but I had thought that they were significantly lower.

The Hawks were one of the best teams in the league in 3 pt defense for much of the season. That has gone down the toilet and pace has nothing to do with it.

The Hawks were roughly 10th in the league in defensive efficiency (which is adjusted for pace) for most of the season. Now they are 18th which is the worst they have been all year.

[killbuckner]

tontoz-why would pace have nothing to do with playing much worse defense? You push the pace more and the other team gets to attack an unsettled defense.

[tontoz]

tontoz-why would pace have nothing to do with playing much worse defense? You push the pace more and the other team gets to attack an unsettled defense.

Hollinger's defensive efficiency is ADJUSTED FOR PACE. What part of this do you not understand? The Suns are ranked higher than we are defensively.

If you actually watched the games you would see that the Hawks defense just flat out sucks right now. It has nothing to do with pace.

[killbuckner]

tontoz- I am not saying that they are giving up more points but playing the same level of defense. I am saying they are playing worse defense in part because they are trying to play at a faster pace. But when you try and play at a faster pace the other team gets to attack an unsettled defense more often.

[killbuckner]

put it this way. You agree that playing at a faster pace would lead to more TO's right? And more TO's would lead to a decrease in defensive efficiency? This isn't complicated.

[tontoz]

tontoz- I am not saying that they are giving up more points but playing the same level of defense. I am saying they are playing worse defense in part because they are trying to play at a faster pace. But when you try and play at a faster pace the other team gets to attack an unsettled defense more often.

A missed shot is a missed shot. The defense still has to run the same distance to get back on defense whether it is a quick shot or a shot at the end of the clock.

If anything the fact that the Hawks are actually making more shots now should help their defense.

Denver ranks 1st in pace and is 6th in defensive efficiency. the Lakers are 5th in pace and 5th in defensive effeciency. This "unsettled defense" stuff is just nonsense.

You are just proving yet again what we already know, you don't watch the games. What was the last Hawks game you actually watched?

[tontoz]

put it this way. You agree that playing at a faster pace would lead to more TO's right? And more TO's would lead to a decrease in defensive efficiency? This isn't complicated.

If you actually watched the games you would know that the Hawks half court exectution is abysmal and that they are better off taking quick shots. When they hold it too long JJ, Smith or Bibby is likely to make a dumb pass and turn it over. Taking quick shots makes them less likely to turn it over.

[conleyorbust]

What is our rotation right now?

Bibby/Salim
Joe/Richardson
Marv/Chil
Smith/?
Al/Zaza

Bibby was a bad defender before his heel injury and now he is terrible... sad but true. Salim tries hard on D but the simple fact is that we give up points when he is on the floor. Good place to start, point of attack: opposing PGs don't have much problem attacking and setting up other players, sometimes a wing or a big man can have a great game because the opposing point guard is always drawing the extra defender.

On the wings, Joe is a solid defender but he is playing +40 minutes a night in a season where he's been showing signs of exhaustion since the third game. Marv started the season off well but his confidence has gone down, overall he's a solid defender but his injured hand has made him a little more timid and he makes mental errors on D. Chil/JRich are the backups here. Richardson doesn't play many minutes and he is a big help in some of the games he plays but they guy doesn't play good D. Chil is our all-purpose backup, he seems to have gotten worse on D the longer he's been in the league: this season our defense gives up 6 more points for every 100 possessions he is in the game.

Up front, our strength on D is Smith's shotblocking. Our defense is 8 points better when he is in the game. Al is a solid defender for a rookie, he certainly puts in the effort. Unforutately when Smith comes out we replace him with Zaza or Marv which means that not only do we lose our only shotblocker but he is replaced by someone who simply can't play D at the position. Same problem with Al... this is all especially concerning because our point guards can't contain penetration and there is usually at least one wing in the game that is a step slow on his rotations so if Smith is out of the game its almost like there are free trips to the basket.

Then you have the coaching factor. The guys have given up on Woody. You don't necessarilly have to blame him, although he has never shown an ability to motivate the team, you can blame players for unprofessionalism. Regardless, the point is that they don't play for him.

So yeah, I do think a big part of it comes from losing AJ (as sad as that is) and having both Bibby and Acie suffering from injuries. Combine that with our lack of depth and defensive role players and sprinkle in some general exhaustion/contempt for the coach and you have a recipe for a stunningly deteriorated defense.

[smabie]

What is our rotation right now?

Bibby/Salim
Joe/Richardson
Marv/Chil
Smith/?
Al/Zaza

Since the trade and Law's injury, its settled into:

Bibby/Salim @ PG
Joe/Marvin/Chill (2 of) @ SG & SF
Smith/Al/Zaza (2 of) @ PF & C
Occasionally: West at the SF (very rarely SG). JRich at the SG (very rarely SF). Solo at C or PF (usually C but not always, depends on whose in).

Woodson's rotation has become methodical. Barring foul issues, the order is something along the lines of:

Chill comes in for Marvin
Zaza comes in for Smith (or Al)
Salim comes in for Bibby
Smith comes in for Al (or vice versa)
Marvin comes in for Joe
Starters come back in for bench.
Wash, rinse, repeat.

Very little imagination or mixing up, unless fouls or game circumstances (ie, Hawks are being blown out) force a change. At the end of close games, Woodson's started using a West/Smith-on-D//Salim/Bibby-on-O rotation, but don't know how fixed that is, since there's not that many close games.