Atlanta @ Washington

[JoshB914]

The myth is that if guys stay in college four years they will be more "composed" in their rookie seasons. In other words, they will play like they have more NBA experience than a guy who played 1 or 2 years.

[tontoz]

The myth is that if guys stay in college four years they will be more "composed" in their rookie seasons. In other words, they will play like they have more NBA experience than a guy who played 1 or 2 years.

That's fine but that isn't what you said in the previous post.

And of course you have to take into account how Law or any other senior who comes out would have looked 4 years younger.

You don't think Marvin would be more composed his rookie year if he had stayed 4 years in college?

[JoshB914]

Well, yeah. The myth is that they will play better than most rooks. When the bottom line is they were in college for four years because they weren't good enough to come out earlier.

IV would look terrible if he came out as frosh, because he wasn't good enough. I'm not saying he should have left early, just that staying four years isn't the blessing some make it out to be, it really just means you weren't good enough to come out before that.

[tontoz]

When the bottom line is they were in college for four years because they weren't good enough to come out earlier.

That is true but it doesn't mean guys who are seniors aren't good enough to do well in the NBA (see Roy, Deron).

[Rip2137]

I don't agree with the more college = more composed stuff either. regardless of where you come from, high school, college, you are having to learn a completely different type of basketball. College basketball is NOTHING like NBA basketball. Guys get drafted because people think they will eventually be able to turn some of their raw skills from college into skills to be used in the NBA.

Now if you aren't fundamentally sound, you can gain some fundamentals in college that you would have had to develop at a NBA level, but at the same time, I think that the NBA is a better place to develop talent than college because of the restrictions on coaching in the college ranks.

If Marvin had stayed in college, I think he would have been just as raw coming into the NBA. His athletisim would have made him a man amongst boys in the college ranks, then he would have gotten in the NBA and been hit with the shock that he really isn't that much more athletic than most other SF's.

At the end of the day, college is nothing more than advertising for guys that don't have that much buzz. The longer you stay, the more buzz you can get if you aren't a freakishly, over the top talented guy.

With Law, I think that the guy has shown me enough flashes that I believe with consistant minutes he would be a very good point guard in the league. Inconsistancy and sticking to the script to a fault are just things that rookies will do. And it hurts the point guard position more than any other position in the NBA. But the only way to get over that is to A: Have the confidence of your coaching staff to let you play through mistakes and B: Have consistant minutes to learn.

Law has gotten neither this year. Plus he got injured twice, which also didn't help. I think Law is going to be fine. I just see way to many people writing off his career already, which I just find to be really silly(not directed at anyone in this thread, but I have seen statements like "He will be lucky to still be in the league in a couple of seasons" post that I just find ridiculous)

[smabie]

Or perhaps he hasn't looked "composed" because he's been injured every time he started to settle in, combined with the fact that until he looks settled, his coach yanks him out of the game every time he even thinks of making a mistake.

For example, the past two games, the Hawks have built the better part of their leads in the 4th while Law was on the court, not Bibby. But even then, Law makes one turnover, or foul, or whatever, and Bibby goes back in, and Woodson chews Acie a new one. And Bibby screws up, just as bad if not worse sometimes, and nothing happens (except for Woodson having this dumbfounded look on his face).

[conleyorbust]

-= original quote snipped =-



That's fine but that isn't what you said in the previous post.

And of course you have to take into account how Law or any other senior who comes out would have looked 4 years younger.

You don't think Marvin would be more composed his rookie year if he had stayed 4 years in college?

It has nothing to do with how the player would have looked if HE had come out earlier. Don't start and argument with JoshB just to start one.

He's just saying that people assume 4 year players are necessarilly going to be more ready off the bat because they are older and more physically mature. The same thing was said about Shelden. The reality is that you probably have the same liklehood of getting a ready-to-produce soph.

Deron was a junior.

[tontoz]

My big question mark with Law is still his outside shot. I am not a fan of his mechanics. I would bet that i could beat him in an outside shooting competition and i dont even play any more.

I think he will do well at everthing else. He is struggling to finish inside now but all he needs to do is shoot it high off the glass or pull up more often for floaters or short jumpers which i know he can do.

[JoshB914]

When the bottom line is they were in college for four years because they weren't good enough to come out earlier.

That is true but it doesn't mean guys who are seniors aren't good enough to do well in the NBA (see Roy, Deron).

I'm not sure how to say this but.... I agree with you! That felt weird...

[conleyorbust]

I just see way to many people writing off his career already, which I just find to be really silly(not directed at anyone in this thread, but I have seen statements like "He will be lucky to still be in the league in a couple of seasons" post that I just find ridiculous)

I know you gave the "not directed..." caveat, but I want to make something clear. I am not saying that Acie Law will never be a productive player. I am just saying that based on what I've seen thus far, I'd feel much more comfortable with another player backing up the 1... especially considering how injury prone Bibby is.

Its possible that the new coach will be able to fast track Acie's development. On the other hand Acie might just be a late bloomer... not a terrible thing if you know what to look for, Nash and Billups were late bloomers at the pg position.

[JoshB914]

Or perhaps he hasn't looked "composed" because he's been injured every time he started to settle in, combined with the fact that until he looks settled, his coach yanks him out of the game every time he even thinks of making a mistake.

For example, the past two games, the Hawks have built the better part of their leads in the 4th while Law was on the court, not Bibby. But even then, Law makes one turnover, or foul, or whatever, and Bibby goes back in, and Woodson chews Acie a new one. And Bibby screws up, just as bad if not worse sometimes, and nothing happens (except for Woodson having this dumbfounded look on his face).

That is true. But most rooks struggle with fitness, inconsistent minutes, and a tight leash. But the "four year player" myth would indicate that since he played all those years in college, he will be able to handle many of the bumps that rookies must take. IV hasn't done that, he's just another rookie to me that has failed to produce. I'm not saying he can't improve with experience, but clearly the extra experience in college didn't make a difference in terms of his game transferring to the NBA.

[smabie]

I'm not saying he can't improve with experience, but clearly the extra experience in college didn't make a difference in terms of his game transferring to the NBA.

If he had been given the reins from the very beginning, and allowed to succeed or fail on his own merit, then I would probably have to agree with you.

However, he hasn't, and therefor NOTHING has been proven, one way or the other, about whether he's any good or not.

Bibby has an inbound violation, and Woodson sighs and leaves him in while the other team is on a major run and the Hawks have been scoreless. Law has an inbound violation, and Woodson yanks him in the middle of a run which Law helped start.

Bibby has a bad limp, and gets left in the game for 30+ minutes. Law's hand is pronounced healthy, and doesn't play for another week.

So its not just that he's "not any good so that's why Woodson doesn't want him in." Its a blatant double-standard of Vet vs Rookie, one that was in place when we had two of the worst PGs in the league playing a majority of our minutes before we (thankfully) traded them. Woodson doesn't handle Law well, has never handled Law well. Just as he's never handled Stoudamire well, never handled Diaw well, never handled a number of the Hawks young players well.

We know nothing about if Law is a good player or not, or if he's composed or mature or not. We do not have the data upon which to base a judgment.

I'm not saying I'm an Acie-lover. What I'm saying is that I don't know if he's good or bad or not. And I'll also point out that there are quite a few of the current Best PGs in the NBA (Billups and Nash to name two) who had atrocious rookie years; so even if we did have the data to know, we still wouldn't know what career path he'd be on.

[ATLfan]

We haven't seen Acie play long enough to get a glimpse at what he can be because of injuries and the inconsistent playing time that he has gotten. But three and four year players are expected to do more than someone who just came out of high school or their freshman year becuase they have already had the time to mature while the others did not, but some players are different than others.

[JoshB914]

Smabie everyone knows there are double-standards with rookies and vets. This is something basically ALL rookies have to deal with, but the assumption is that four year players will deal with it better (maturity and composure) than 1 and out guys. That hasn't happened with IV. I'm not blaming him because it isn't easy being a rookie, but clearly the four years of experience in college haven't helped him from that standpoint.

[Harry10]

i'll give any guy atleast 3 years.... regardless of high school or a BA.

i don't know about this myth somebody made up, but guys develop differently. look at Devin Harris.