Marvin Williams = Sam Bowie ???

[LL Cool Scott]

As a Tarheel fan, it hurts to say it - but the Marvin Williams pick is shaping up to be as disastrous as the Sam Bowie pick was for Portland. Can anyone think of a draft pick that hurt a franchise more than this one?

[Rip2137]

As a Tarheel fan, it hurts to say it - but the Marvin Williams pick is shaping up to be as disastrous as the Sam Bowie pick was for Portland. Can anyone think of a draft pick that hurt a franchise more than this one?

Seriously, you don't see how incredibly silly this is?

Until Marvin gets ridiculously injured over and over and over again and doesn't even play for us, you cant even begain to compare the two. And Bowie was actually a decent player. Just injury prone.

Marvin Williams has got to be the most critisized 3rd offensive option averaging 15 points per game I have ever seen. Do you all not realize that we are getting VERY good production out of our 3rd option wing man? For a 3rd year 21 year old? that has a moron for a coach?

You new aged basketball fans are always ready to call a guy a bust if they aren't a superstar in their first year. This thread is just ridiculous.

[HMFFL]

Rip,

No one is holding Marvin's lack of 3 point production back except for himself. It's a huge void this team has because we rely on 3's far too much from JJ and Mike Bibby.

I hope Marvin attempts 3 pointer during the offseason until his arms fall off. If Marvin can do this, it would free up many of our players, so Joe and Josh Smith would gain by Marvin another weapon (that he should have already).

[conleyorbust]

You new aged basketball fans are always ready to call a guy a bust if they aren't a superstar in their first year. This thread is just ridiculous.

I don't think LL is "new aged". He seems to be a fairly old school Hawks fan, Dominique-era.

As far as the actual question goes... Well, Paul is unbelievable - if we had lucked out like those bastards in Portland (remember they passed on him so they could get Webster), it would be a moot point.

[Rip2137]

Rip,

No one is holding Marvin's lack of 3 point production back except for himself. It's a huge void this team has because we rely on 3's far too much from JJ and Mike Bibby.

I hope Marvin attempts 3 pointer during the offseason until his arms fall off. If Marvin can do this, it would free up many of our players, so Joe and Josh Smith would gain by Marvin another weapon (that he should have already).

This teams problem is not 3 point shooting. The problem is that if you make Marvin Mr. 3 point shooting guy, you basically become the Chicago Bulls of the past few years.

If he drives to the whole and gets to the line 7-8 times a game, he will do the team alot more good than being the 3rd guy back there shooting threes. My point is I don't want Smith to be a counted on as a weapon because although he shot 46 percent this year, you have to think that most of his shots come RIGHT at the rim. He is still not a good finisher becuase he still has a tendacy to kinda just toss up shots at the rim instead of finishing strong which leads to LOTS of missed layups.

If Josh Smith had Josh Childress's body control, then fine, I would want Marvin to be Mr. Shooting guy.

Much like Toni Parker doesn't take threes, Marvin doesn't have to either if he goes to the rim effectively which I think is obviously giong to be he best attribute.

[Rip2137]

As a matter of fact...Name on championship caliber team with three point shooters at the 1-2-3.

Boston? Nope...Rondo takes that out.
Phoenix? Nope...Grant Hill or Diaw...either way...shouldn't be taking threes.
San Antonio? Nope...Parker
Lakers?...technically, but I am sure they aren't a fan of Odom(if Bynum is there) or Kobe jacking up threes.

The three point shot is a great difference maker when you have people that attack the rim relentlessly. Josh Smith isn't a good enough finisher, Joe doesn't like doing it, Bibby won't do it, and that would just be misusing Horford. So who does it leave?

[LL Cool Scott]

^ The thing is, though...he DOESN'T go to the rim effectively. He didn't at Carolina, and he doesn't now. He's a skilled player, but he's all finesse. And finesse gets you nowhere in the playoffs where they don't call touch fouls.

Back to the original question though - you've made it clear that you think this thread is ridiculous - but can you name another draft pick since Bowie that has been more damaging to a franchise?

[HMFFL]

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This teams problem is not 3 point shooting. The problem is that if you make Marvin Mr. 3 point shooting guy, you basically become the Chicago Bulls of the past few years.

One of the teams biggest problem is shooting overall and the lack of 3 point production plays into it greatly. You don't become the Bulls, you become a contenders that now opens up the floor, and if your team can make them it ups things up for your star player(s).

If he drives to the whole and gets to the line 7-8 times a game, he will do the team alot more good than being the 3rd guy back there shooting threes.

He should be doing that anyway. I like the fact that Marvin attempted 5.1 free throws per/game. That's all good, but we still need Marvin to become a 3 point threat if he's going to stay on this team, so at some point it needs to happen or I want him to go asap.

If Josh Smith had Josh Childress's body control, then fine, I would want Marvin to be Mr. Shooting guy.

Not sure what the Joshes have to do with Marvin. However, Marvin needs to be our main scoring option behind Joe, so I would like to see Marvin attempt 15-18 shots per/game.

Much like Toni Parker doesn't take threes, Marvin doesn't have to either if he goes to the rim effectively which I think is obviously giong to be he best attribute.

Tony still makes the Spurs a better team and Marvin doesn't. They don't even play the same position, so it's rather pointless to compare the two, and the Spurs have roughly four guys that can shoot 3 pointers consistently.

I don't want it to sound like I'm bashing Marvin, because I'm not, it's just we need him to become a 3 pointer shooter or we need to go down another path.

[Rip2137]

I don't think this pick was damaging to the franchise. Nor do I think the Bowie pick was damanging to Portland. They were a powerhouse in the West for years after that, making 2 finals and a few more WCF before they finally got old.

If you want to call them franchise damaging picks, then you have to go with Darko over Wade or Anthony or Bosh. But once again, thats just plain silly seeing as Detroit has still been a powerhouse. Could the teams have been better? Sure. Does that mean that the franchise is damaged because they got a different player? No.

Hell, Denver went with Skita over Amare Stoudimire...at least we got a good player out of our "franchise damaging pick"

And to say Marvin williams wasn't going to the rim effectively before the allstar break is just plain ignoring the facts about what he was doing before the break. He has played like crap after the break and the bibby trade because the ball has been out of his hands in favor of Joe and Bibby. There is just no way anyone can deny what Marvin Williams did the first 3 months of this season while Joe was taking them off.

[HMFFL]

As a matter of fact...Name on championship caliber team with three point shooters at the 1-2-3.

Boston? Nope...Rondo takes that out.
Phoenix? Nope...Grant Hill or Diaw...either way...shouldn't be taking threes.
San Antonio? Nope...Parker
Lakers?...technically, but I am sure they aren't a fan of Odom(if Bynum is there) or Kobe jacking up threes.

The three point shot is a great difference maker when you have people that attack the rim relentlessly. Josh Smith isn't a good enough finisher, Joe doesn't like doing it, Bibby won't do it, and that would just be misusing Horford. So who does it leave?

Houston! Should I even bother going into detail?

Los Angeles is another. Kobe can jack up as many three pointers as he wants considering he's hitting 36.1% of them. Pau and Odom are living off those misses and put them up for easy baskets.

Derek Fisher is shooting over 40%, Kobe is close enough and Vladimir Radmanovic is shooting over 40%.

Carmelo Anthony doesn't shoot many three points. He still managed to make 58 this season which is his second most amount to the 69 he had during his rookie season. He still shoots them and made 35.4 % of them this season. However, he still frees up his teammates and make an impact Marvin can only dream about.

[Rip2137]

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Tony still makes the Spurs a better team and Marvin doesn't. They don't even play the same position, so it's rather pointless to compare the two, and the Spurs have roughly four guys that can shoot 3 pointers consistently.

I don't want it to sound like I'm bashing Marvin, because I'm not, it's just we need him to become a 3 pointer shooter or we need to go down another path.

And the Hawks have Joe, Salim, Jeremy Richardson and Mike Bibby that are three point shooter.

The Spurs have Bowen from the corner, Finley, Ginobli and Barry that shoot the three consistantly.

The differece is one coach knows how to build a half court offense and the other doesn't.

Putting marvin further out on the perimeter and shooting threes would make him less effective and doesn't play to his strengths at all. You want more shooter? Then add some more. You don't make a guy less effective so you can add three point shooting. In the offseason his goal should be to get those freethrow attempts up. that is what would make the team better. Not him stepping out further and just adding another guy that doesn't get to the line.

Another thing...name a championship caliber team that doesn't have a guy that gets tothe line. Alot?

[LL Cool Scott]

I don't think this pick was damaging to the franchise. Nor do I think the Bowie pick was damanging to Portland.

Wow.

[Rip2137]

[quote="HMFFL"][/quote]

Houston is not a championship caliber team.

I am sure there are people that would pay tracy mcgrady to stop taking threes.

That is one aspect of his game that is killing him. HIm taking threes is not a GOOD thing.

Niether is Carmelo taking threes. BAD thing there too. Plus...Denver is not a championship caliber team. They are a playoff caliber team.

Getting the the rim >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Three point shooting. Always has, always will.

I would see if we had NO three point shooters, but seeing as Joe is a consistant threat from there and bibby is in theory(ha!), Josh loses the ball dribbling to the hole and Horford is a 5th option right now, we NEED a slasher getting to the rim. Putting him further out means no consistant slasher.

And then you are the Bulls.

[HMFFL]

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And the Hawks have Joe, Salim, Jeremy Richardson and Mike Bibby that are three point shooter.

Joe made 169, Salim made 29, J-Rich made 5 and Mike Bibby made 69. The point is we rely on them from our backcourt and don't have anyone else to make them. It's not like J-Rich and Salim see the court and I don't exactly trust the two fully for all 82 games.. There is no reason to even mention the two of them with the established players around the league.

Another thing...name a championship caliber team that doesn't have a guy that gets tothe line. Alot?

What do you consider alot?

[Rip2137]

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Wow.

If it was so damanging wouldn't they have to suck afterwards? Yes, they could have been better. True.

Damaged franchises don't exactly make the finals and SHOULD have won one(they choked against the Bulls...big time).

Who is to even say that Jordan would have been as good had he been in Portland and not put in the triangle or had Scottie Pippen to drive him defensively to get better? Thats a whole lot of assumptions.

Just like it takes a whole lot of assumptions to say that Mike Woodson would have taken the ball away from Joe Johnson and said "Chris, you just create however you see fit...this is your team" because that is why Chris Paul is so effective.

This isn't NBA 2K. You don't just throw a player on a team and their careers end up the same way.

[raleigh]

No, Andrew Bogut = Sam Bowie.

While Bogut has been solid, Paul has been so good that I think it's time we admit he should've been the 1st pick in the draft.

[HMFFL]

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Houston is not a championship caliber team.

I am sure there are people that would pay tracy mcgrady to stop taking threes.

That is one aspect of his game that is killing him. HIm taking threes is not a GOOD thing.

Niether is Carmelo taking threes. BAD thing there too. Plus...Denver is not a championship caliber team. They are a playoff caliber team.

Getting the the rim >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Three point shooting. Always has, always will.

I would see if we had NO three point shooters, but seeing as Joe is a consistant threat from there and bibby is in theory(ha!), Josh loses the ball dribbling to the hole and Horford is a 5th option right now, we NEED a slasher getting to the rim. Putting him further out means no consistant slasher.

And then you are the Bulls.

Ouch!

Yao Ming played 55 games and the team won over 20 games straight without him. They are among the Western Conference elite and won 55 games which is only 1 game behind SA/NO.

Houston would probably make it out of the first round if Yao was on the floor. The team can only do so much with a lack of bigs to take on what's missing from Yao.

[Rip2137]

Houston, even with Yao, aren't a great team against other elite teams. And its not Yaos fault, but they tend to get stagnant with him in the game. I think they probably would have been the 4 seed at best if he didn't get hurt, but I still wouldn't pick them over Utah(although I admit it could go either way).

I like Houston alot though. I think they shouldn't have traded Bonzi Wells, and trusted Aaron Brooks(I mean, young guy are not, his confidence is so high, he doesn't give a crap) instead of trading for Bobby Jackson. I think they are a solid back up Center(yeah, Mutumbo gives them good minutes, but they need a legit back up center) and make more use of the PF(and battier needs to be back that the SF spot) and I would pick them maybe.

I would pick Houston over everyone except the elite teams.

As for the free throw thing you asked, I was going to say you need at least one guy at 6 or over and one guy at 5 and over before I releaized that Josh was at 5.8 and Marvin was over 5 thus negating my point..

...

LOOK A BEAR~!

*runs out while everyone is looking*

[LL Cool Scott]

[quote="mrhonline"]No, Andrew Bogut = Sam Bowie.

While Bogut has been solid, Paul has been so good that I think it's time we admit he should've been the 1st pick in the draft.quote]

Good point. How about this - Bogut/Williams = Bowie. Is that a fair compromise?

[Rip2137]

So are we suggesting the Olajawon being picked also destroyed Houston's franchise because Jordan should have been the number one pick?