Remember Brandon Roy?

[td00]

That is what topped my opinion of BK! He totally blew it by picking Shell head and let another all-star get through our hands.

Shell head wasn't even in the conversation. BK tried to prove he was so much smarter than the average fan, and his ego just can't take the advice of others.

No way I say thanks to BK! 35 wins is not a total improvement.

[Rip2137]

the average fan wouldn't have taken Brandon Roy either.

The Bulls needed a bigger two guard but took Tyrus Thomas. The Raps needed a dependable perimeter player (they had no idea that Anthony Parker would be that good) and took Barg. The Bobcats were starting Felton at the 2 and needed a legit SG to move him to the point and keep Gerlad Wallace at the 3. They drafted Adam Morrison.


The hawks needed a point guard and a big. they should have grabed a big in free agency, traded the 5 pick for around a 15-20 pick and gotten Rondo, Lowery or M. Williams and would have added depth for whatever they could have gotten along with that 5 pick.

What they should NOT have done was taken Brandon Roy. I don't understand why people knock Knight for drafting the same position(legit complaint) but then say he was dumb for not drafting a two guard with point guard skills(kinda like that max player we have)

Bradon Roy, in no way shape or form was the right pick for us. Plus he had bad knees coming into the league. That is what scared the other teams off.

I have gone into the "No way he would have been nearly as good here" thing, but people tend to ignore that, no need to repeat it.

I am botherd by Sheldon at 5, mostly because there was SO many things that they should have been doing with that pick instead of taking a undersized Center that no one in side the top 10 picks wanted. Not drafting Roy doesn't bother me at all.

[HoopsGuru25]

Rip....you make alot of things up in hindsight. The Bulls did need a big guard which is why they took a 6'7 guard with their 2nd lottery pick. The Raptors 2/3 were Peterson and Villanueva. It was almost a lock that they were going to take Aldridge or Bargnani. Morrison sucks but people didn't see that coming ala Shelden. He was actually considered a top 3-4 prospect and not a reach unlike Shelden who was ranked in the teens before the rumors of Knight guaranteeing to take him.

The fact is that Roy WOULD have started for the Hawks. I've yet to hear one convincing argument as to why he wouldn't start. I can use the same lame argument for drafting Marvin when we already had Diaw/Smith/Harrington/Chil who were all 6-8/6-9 . We took Marvin because we thought he was the BPA. This is like saying you wouldn't want the Hawks to draft Durant if we had the 2nd pick in 07 because he didn't fill a "need".

[Rip2137]

How can you say you haven't seen one convinceing argument that Roy wouldn't have started?

Roy at PG failed in Portland because he isn't a point guard. It failed. You telling me that a genius like Mike woodson would have made it work?

the ONLY way roy would have been successful here is, like in Portland, we put the ball in his hands and ran a 1-4 offense where he is a slasher/playmaker. You are still arguing that the Hawks were going to tell their max paid SG that they were going to hand the teams offense over to a injury prone rookie. What part of that sounds SLIGHTLY realistic? Roys game doesn't allow for another guy dominating the ball.

Here, he becomes a spot up shooter for Joe and that is not the strength of his game at all. And he can't defend points.

How exactly was he going to put up the same numbers with a severly diminished offensive role.

Its not hindsight here. Those teams needed a 2. the reason they didn't go with Roy was because he was a guy with bad knees. simple as that. If he was healthy, Roy would have ranked higher. he wasn't viewed as BPA because of health concerns. Now hindsight makes people completely throw that out the window.

People clamoring for Roy is that NBA Live roster building. Well, roy averages over 20 for portland, so put him here and he and joe average over 40 a game!!! Roy has to be the number one offensive option for things to work. He would not be that here.

[HoopsGuru25]

Rip. I have three questions for you.

1. Do you seriously believe Woodson is dumb enough to start Anthony Johnson over Brandan Roy? If so.....then explain why Al Horford started over Zaza Pachulia.

2. Do you think people would be making up Marvin for Howard or Marvin for Redd trades if Roy was on the roster? Marvin would NOT start over Brandan Roy.

3. Do you really think Roy would have been a "spot up shooter" for the Hawks? Do you think Dwyane Wade would be forced to become a spot up shooter if he played with Joe Johnson? If not then why would Brandan Roy be a spot up shooter for the Hawks?

[conleyorbust]

Rip. I have three questions for you.

1. Do you seriously believe Woodson is dumb enough to start Anthony Johnson over Brandan Roy? If so.....then explain why Al Horford started over Zaza Pachulia.

2. Do you think people would be making up Marvin for Howard or Marvin for Redd trades if Roy was on the roster? Marvin would NOT start over Brandan Roy.

3. Do you really think Roy would have been a "spot up shooter" for the Hawks? Do you think Dwyane Wade would be forced to become a spot up shooter if he played with Joe Johnson? If not then why would Brandan Roy be a spot up shooter for the Hawks?

Right, Woody's problem isn't refusing to play guys because they play too similarly to everyone else. His problem is the opposite really, he'll put a lineup out there with Joe, Marv, Chil, Josh, and Al where everyone but Joe is a slasher or inside player of some sore.

Plus, Roy is Woody's kind of guy. Old school-ish.

Anyway, the point isn't that Roy or Gay would have been bad fits or something. The point is that literally everyone knew that he was going to pick Shelden and literally everyone said that he was going to be a bust that low because he was too physically limited to be a starting caliber player and not skilled enough to make up for it. I didn't like Ty Thomas at all coming into the league and I didn't know much about Bargnani but at least those picks are defensible because of upside/potential. Shelden could only fill a need if he was good enough to play, he wasn't and everyone knew it.

Waste of a major asset.

[trickydik]

well you got to put the "time machine" effect if we would of drafted roy.


our whole team wouldn't be as it is today if we went another route.

if we did take roy in the draft , we wouldn't of got horford because we would of had more wins and less ping pong balls , that pick would of went to phoenix.

so in hindsight again , would of you of rather have roy or horford ?

and shell head got us a pg in bibby with the trade to sac town.

i'm pretty happy with horford and bibby compared to roy and whoever he would of drafted at 11 , i don't think he would of picked law. probably al thornton maybe even sean williams.

yes he has passed on some great talent in roy , paul , deron , but if he didn't make those picks we wouldn't of lucked out in the 07 draft with horford.


point being , i'm content with our team now as it is going into the future , yes it would of been nice to have paul but i don't know who would still be on the team with him , and the future trades and draft picks following the years.

where would atlanta be if we selected paul over williams , what would our roster look like today if that happened ?

[HoopsGuru25]

our whole team wouldn't be as it is today if we went another route.

if we did take roy in the draft , we wouldn't of got horford because we would of had more wins and less ping pong balls , that pick would of went to phoenix.

You don't make picks based on how bad you will be the next year. That is a very lame argument and probably the reason why Knight was dumb enough to pass on consecutive rookie of the years.

so in hindsight again , would of you of rather have roy or horford ?

Don't you almost have to say Roy until Horford makes his 1st all-star team? I love Horford but he has nothing to do with this argument because the team that has Roy picked 1st and we picked 3rd.

and shell head got us a pg in bibby with the trade to sac town.

Bibby is a more useful player than Shelden but I'd easily take Roy over Bibby. Roy actually has a better assist/turnover ratio and couldn't possibly play worse defense. We got Bibby for a salary dump.

i'm pretty happy with horford and bibby compared to roy and whoever he would of drafted at 11 , i don't think he would of picked law. probably al thornton maybe even sean williams.

You can't assume that the Hawks wouldn't have kept their pick if they drafted Roy. Horford and Roy have nothing to do with each other. That's like me saying Roy and Oden>Bibby and Horford.

[Rip2137]

1: Zaza was injured at the start of the year. When he got back from injury he was immediately put in the starting lineup and Horford went to the bench. This went on for 5 games I believe (with Al getting one more start because Josh was hurt against Seattle). Then Zaza got hurt again and went back to the bench and never regained his starting spot. Lets not pretend that Al was starting because he was obviously the best guy. Woodson wouldn't have started him as a rookie. It was because of injuries and nothing more.

2: And if he started over Marvin williams, what exactly would his role be? What is Marvin? A spot up shooter??????

3: Yes, he would have been a spot up shooter. Brandon Roy is not Dwayne Wade. It is still a lame comparison as it was the first time you used it. Compare apples to apples dude.

and I have one question that you still seem to ignore.

If Brandon Roy has been successful in a 1-4 offense that has him with the ball in his hands making decisions 90% of the time, what makes you believe that he was going to be able to do that here. Do you truely believe that we were going to change the whole offense to cater to a rookie? HOW does that seem realistic to you? I don't see how anyone can possibly say that.

You are not going to be able to name another team that took the ball out of their superstar player in the second year of his contract to placate a rookie. Who, oh, by the way, was injured for over a month 4 games into the season and was injured again by seasons end. It simply was not going to happen.

It is just over the top hindsight honestly. Roy is the player he is today because the team was handed to him in Portland. Not given to share, not becoming a part of a offense. they made the offense to cater to him. he was handed control of the team from the second he stepped on the court. That WOULD NOT have happened here, and I am pretty sure you know that. This requires you to ignore everything that makes a guy successful.

[trickydik]

Don't you almost have to say Roy until Horford makes his 1st all-star team? I love Horford but he has nothing to do with this argument because the team that has Roy picked 1st and we picked 3rd.

i'm referring to the 06 draft when the hawks picked shell over roy , if the hawks did pick roy , then we wouldn't of had the ping pong balls go in our favor to pick horford , that pick would of went to phoenix.


if we would of picked roy in the 06 draft , we would of won more games , we wouldn't of gotten the 3rd pick in the 07 draft.

i mean there is a chance that we could of , but it was very unlikely.


yes we could of went back to the 05 draft , if the hawks did pick paul. then who would be on our team currently ?

i know we would have paul, but who else ?

if we picked paul , would we of gotten a top 10 pick the following year ?

[tontoz]

our whole team wouldn't be as it is today if we went another route.

if we did take roy in the draft , we wouldn't of got horford because we would of had more wins and less ping pong balls , that pick would of went to phoenix.

Memphis, Boston and the Bucks all had more ping pong balls than we did.

Do you know how the lottery works?

[Rip2137]

You know, I keep saying Roy would have to be a spot up shooter, let me put it like this.

SOMEONE would have been turned into a spot up shooter. Either him or Joe. There is literally NO WAY they both can do what makes them good while on a team together so one of them was going to be the outlet guy.

Show of hands on those that think it would have been Joe.

[HoopsGuru25]

1: Zaza was injured at the start of the year. When he got back from injury he was immediately put in the starting lineup and Horford went to the bench. This went on for 5 games I believe (with Al getting one more start because Josh was hurt against Seattle). Then Zaza got hurt again and went back to the bench and never regained his starting spot. Lets not pretend that Al was starting because he was obviously the best guy. Woodson wouldn't have started him as a rookie. It was because of injuries and nothing more.

Wrong again. Horford started 79 out of a possible 81 games and played MORE minutes than Zaza in the 2 games he didn't start. He actually played the exact same minutes(30 per game)in the games where he started.

2: And if he started over Marvin williams, what exactly would his role be? What is Marvin? A spot up shooter??????

If Marvin was actually good at handling the ball and scoring 1 on 1 he wouldn't be a spot up shooter. It's not that hard to figure out.

3: Yes, he would have been a spot up shooter. Brandon Roy is not Dwayne Wade. It is still a lame comparison as it was the first time you used it. Compare apples to apples dude.

I will say it again. What is the difference between Brandon Roy/Joe Johnson and Dwyane Wade/Eddie Jones during his rookie year. I also would like to know why Roy wouldn't be the 2nd option on the Hawks when less efficient offensive players like Josh Smith and Al Harrington have been 2nd options in Joe's 3 years here.

If Brandon Roy has been successful in a 1-4 offense that has him with the ball in his hands making decisions 90% of the time, what makes you believe that he was going to be able to do that here. Do you truely believe that we were going to change the whole offense to cater to a rookie? HOW does that seem realistic to you? I don't see how anyone can possibly say that.

You are not going to be able to name another team that took the ball out of their superstar player in the second year of his contract to placate a rookie. Who, oh, by the way, was injured for over a month 4 games into the season and was injured again by seasons end. It simply was not going to happen.

Did Roy not play with Zach Randolph his rookie year or I'm missing something? 'm not saying Roy would have came in and scores 25 a game right away. However he WOULD have played over 30 minutes a game and been the clear 2nd option on the team because he would be the only player on the team outside of Joe who could create his own shot(besides Smith who does it every now and then). So yes....saying that Roy wouldn't have done well on the Hawks(or be a top minute per game backup like you said 4 months ago)is dumb if you don't think a player like Iverson or Wade would do well on the Hawks as well. You have yet to disprove my theory that the Heat drafted Wade despite having a max player at SG and two point guards get drafted within the next 3 picks(Ford and Hinrich). It's amazing how much you contradict yourself and have excuse after excuse to defend Billy Knight's horrible draft picks.

I also see you are changing your tune about Woodson being the reason why Shelden didn't do well and "didn't get any plays ran for him"(lmao) now that he has been traded. It's amazing how you are forgetting that you said would have been crying that we didn't draft Shelden when he was playing huge minutes for another team and putting up a double double while Roy was Joe's backup. I HAVE to ask why Shelden played ONE more minute per game in Sac than Atlanta if Woodson was holding him back.

[trickydik]

yes it's all down to percentages based on the previous years standings.

we lucked out getting the 3rd pick , and once again , if we had drafted roy , we wouldn't of gotten horford.


if we drafted roy we wouldn't of been so lucky in the 07 draft to get horford , that pick would of went to phoenix


hawks had the 4th most balls 13.3% chance to get the 3rd pick and they got lucky.


i'm pretty sure that's how the draft works



roy would of been nice , but i like our big man in horford , i think he will have a better career.

[tontoz]

Even if Roy couldn't play the point JJ could easily play the 3. Teams wouldn't be able to effectively double either with the other on the court.

It isn't like Marvin or Childress are special enough to pass up on a talent like Roy.

[conleyorbust]

Don't you almost have to say Roy until Horford makes his 1st all-star team? I love Horford but he has nothing to do with this argument because the team that has Roy picked 1st and we picked 3rd.

i'm referring to the 06 draft when the hawks picked shell over roy , if the hawks did pick roy , then we wouldn't of had the ping pong balls go in our favor to pick horford , that pick would of went to phoenix.


if we would of picked roy in the 06 draft , we would of won more games , we wouldn't of gotten the 3rd pick in the 07 draft.

i mean there is a chance that we could of , but it was very unlikely.


yes we could of went back to the 05 draft , if the hawks did pick paul. then who would be on our team currently ?

i know we would have paul, but who else ?

if we picked paul , would we of gotten a top 10 pick the following year ?

Paul+Joe+Smith (who would be awsome with a guy like Paul who could get him the ball in motion for dunks and oops) would be the best 3 man nucleus in the east.

[tontoz]

yes it's all down to percentages based on the previous years standings.

we lucked out getting the 3rd pick , and once again , if we had drafted roy , we wouldn't of gotten horford.


if we drafted roy we wouldn't of been so lucky in the 07 draft to get horford , that pick would of went to phoenix


hawks had the 4th most balls 13.3% chance to get the 3rd pick and they got lucky.


i'm pretty sure that's how the draft works



roy would of been nice , but i like our big man in horford , i think he will have a better career.

The guys who picked ahead of us had better records than we did.

Using the lottery to justify a horrible pick is ridiculous.

[JoshB914]

I would take Roy over Horford, even though I love Al.

[conleyorbust]

-= original quote snipped =-



The guys who picked ahead of us had better records than we did.

Using the lottery to justify a horrible pick is ridiculous.

Not to mention, as of right now Roy and Paul are better players than Horford so using the "we wouldn't have had Al Horford if..." argument is pretty (Please Use More Appropriate Word).

We will give up our pick to PHX next season instead of this past season. In the end though, we picked the wrong guy in 05' and then basically blew our pick completely in 06' with no REAL justification.

[trickydik]

do you think we still would of gotten johnson , even after getting paul.


wasn't it bk that wanted johnson to play pg which is why he traded for him.

i'm pretty sure i heard that back in the day. but even so

yea that would of been a nice trio.

i was all for drafting paul in that 05 draft , i actually wanted bogut more because good centers are rare , but once bogut got picked i was praying for paul to be selected.

but you never know marvin could turn out to be something good , i mean on the bright side he is improving every year.

pts / reb

8.5 4.8 05/06
13.1 5.3 06/07
14.8 5.7 07/08


if he keeps this steady increase next year averages could be
16.5 6.1

i'll take 16 and 6 a game from marvin

i know it's not paul's great numbers but there is nothing we can do about that.