Al Horford Compared To Other Centers/PF

[richboy]

Horford IMO will be a much better individual defender and rebounder than Smith.

That is just speculation. It is funny how you criticize people who speculate on the type of player Smith will be and then you turn around and do the same thing with Horford.

When the Hawks played the Celtics the first time Horford was put on KG and got thoroughly abused.

In the playoffs Smith was the primary defender on KG who shot 8% below his season average.

There have been plenty of instances (Boozer, Bosh) of Horford getting abused but when Horford wasn't here last year those same power forwards didn't look so good against Smith.

As far as rebounding goes the main difference between the two is on the offensive glass because Smith hangs out on the perimeter too much. Defensively there isn't much difference in their rebounding at all, especially considering Smith is second in the league in blocks and Horford winds up rebounding many of the misses that Smith causes.

Well PF against Horford last year shot 42%. Centers shot 52%. IMO watching Horford he is a lot more effective against smaller players. His post game is a lot more effective and his ability to defend the paint is better. KG is a better matchup for Smith who can challenge KG's length with his athletism.

Marvin Williams being a good defender. The games I've seen he been much worse than Anthony. He had a couple of good defensive games Pierce in Atlanta. Outside of that he was horrible. During the year other forwards especially the quicker ones did whatever they wanted against him.

SF Production against Marvin in playoffs and regular season

http://www.82games.com/0708/playoffs/07ATL8C.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0708/07ATL10C.HTM

How is Horford a top 10 center but the Hawks rank near the bottom of the league in offense defense at the center spot.

[tontoz]

Well PF against Horford last year shot 42%. Centers shot 52%. IMO watching Horford he is a lot more effective against smaller players.

What quality 4s did he guard well? He got lit up by Boozer and Bosh. Okafor dropped a 20/20 on him.

Horford also rarely played the 4. He played almost all his minutes at center and just played a few backup minutes at the 4.

http://www.82games.com/0708/07ATL12C.HTM

How is Horford a top 10 center but the Hawks rank near the bottom of the league in offense defense at the center spot.

First of all i never said Horford was a top 10 center, and he certainly wouldn't be a top 10 4 either. His inability to score was a major problem all season. Teams could put a big, slow player on him and Horford wouldn't take advantage of him.

How often did he beat Perkins off the dribble? If they tried to put Perkins on Smith it would be ugly in a hurry.

[Rip2137]

Who are these mystery 10 centers that are better than Horford?

Without listing guys like Bosh or Boozer at C, then you aren't finding 10 better than him.

Using those stats...man you guys love them.

Pierce shot 40% or under in 4 of the 7 games in the series versus the Hawks.

I won't attribute all that to Marv, because Joe and Chill spent alot of time guarding him too, but seriously, alot of small forwards had pretty bad games against the Hawks and people just chalked it up to anything but Marvins defense.

You keep saying Anthony is better...how? How is he slightly better than Marvin defensively? Every person walking the planet knows how bad he is defensively except you apparently. Carmelo is a star because he can score. But he is clearly a HORRIBLE defender.

Any attempt to call Marvin williams a horrible defender is just plain ridiculous. It obviously isn't true.

[tontoz]

Who are these mystery 10 centers that are better than Horford?

Here is more than 10

Howard
Jefferson
Bynum
Yao
Big Z
Kaman
Chandler
Bogut
Miller
Daly
Okur
Camby
Shaq
Biedrins


That doesn't even count part timers like Duncan and Amare.

[conleyorbust]

Who are these mystery 10 centers that are better than Horford?

Here is more than 10

Howard
Jefferson
Bynum
Yao
Big Z
Kaman
Chandler
Bogut
Miller
Daly
Okur
Camby
Shaq
Biedrins


That doesn't even count part timers like Duncan and Amare.

I'd have to agree with this. I think Al has the potential to be better than many of these dudes but there are some things he has to work on.

I think people get a little carried away because Al brought a lot of the things we needed on this team and it was a pretty weak rookie class. He was a great rebounder, an adequate defender, and an occasionally effective offensive player - the best thing he did was not make the usual rookie screwups very often (no 10 TO games a la Al Thornton).

If Al were top 10 this year, we definitely would have been better than a 37 win team.

As far as Joe for Melo, that works a lot better for Denver because they can play Joe at the 2, Kleiza at the 3 and AI at the point.

I wouldn't do it though. Again, I don't necessarilly think Joe is a better player than Melo, I just don't think Melo really fits with this team. Especially if it means moving Chil to the 2 - the problem in Denver is that there are no shooters around AI and Melo.

[JoshB914]

Just for you guys to get an idea of how many times richboy watched the Hawks this year, he said in another thread on the gen. board that Nick Collison had a better year than Al Horford.

[JoshB914]

-= original quote snipped =-



To be fair their numbers are pretty close.

Exactly. Because anyone who actually watched both of them and didn't just look at the stats would have known that Horford had a much better year.

[tontoz]

Just for you guys to get an idea of how many times richboy watched the Hawks this year, he said in another thread on the gen. board that Nick Collison had a better year than Al Horford.

To be fair their numbers are pretty close.

[Rip2137]

Who are these mystery 10 centers that are better than Horford?

Here is more than 10

Howard
Jefferson
Bynum
Yao
Big Z
Kaman
Chandler
Bogut
Miller
Daly
Okur
Camby
Shaq
Biedrins


That doesn't even count part timers like Duncan and Amare.

No way I would put Okur (he only averaged 4 more points than him and Horford was better in every other catagory) Camby(sure the rebounds and blocks look nice, but he is a weak link in the defense, and as much as you harp on Horfords scoring Camby is worse scoring option, Shaq(come on dude 13-9 and he averaged almost twice as many turnovers as assist for the "great passing big man" and made the Suns defense worse), Biedrins(they had basically the same numbers only Horford is obviously a more talented player offensively and a better post defender thus giving him the edge in my eyes.) or Dalembert( one more rebound and one more block than Al, sure, but I still think Al is the more talented offensive player and they are about the same defensively and honestly, a extra 2 minutes per game can make up that one rebound difference) above him.

I could argue agaisnt Bynum seeing as we basically just saw him have a good stretch then get hurt and hasn't proven to be able to do what he did over a season, but I think clearly the guy is going to be special.


So remove those four and he is sitting at ten. Right where I think he is.

[killbuckner]

Everyone wants to compare Horford to guys like Brand or Boozer. But when it comes down to it his production was much more like a Collison or PJ Brown workmanlike player. He was not particularly productive on offense- he was a workmanlike defense/rebounding player.

[High 5]

Well, he was a rookie. The more he gets involved in the offense the better his numbers will get. I doubt he'll be a 20/10 (though certainly possible), I can see something like 16/10.

[Rip2137]

dude...you have been saying that all year, but who has compared Horford to Brand or Boozer?

[Rip2137]

I think people are just under estimating how far the Center position has fallen in the realm of the NBA with the more athletic the players have become. You have smaller guys that are stronger and athletic enough to still defend the big slugs of olden time, so the center position has basically turned into less skilled PF's that can rebound (for the most part, there are some exceptions)

Saying Horford is a top 10 center is as much a credit to him as it is a showing of how weak the position is when it comes to offensive numbers in the league. Defensively and rebounding wise, he is right there already.

[tontoz]

-= original quote snipped =-



No way I would put Okur (he only averaged 4 more points than him and Horford was better in every other catagory) Camby(sure the rebounds and blocks look nice, but he is a weak link in the defense, and as much as you harp on Horfords scoring Camby is worse scoring option, Shaq(come on dude 13-9 and he averaged almost twice as many turnovers as assist for the "great passing big man" and made the Suns defense worse), Biedrins(they had basically the same numbers only Horford is obviously a more talented player offensively and a better post defender thus giving him the edge in my eyes.) or Dalembert( one more rebound and one more block than Al, sure, but I still think Al is the more talented offensive player and they are about the same defensively and honestly, a extra 2 minutes per game can make up that one rebound difference) above him.

I could argue agaisnt Bynum seeing as we basically just saw him have a good stretch then get hurt and hasn't proven to be able to do what he did over a season, but I think clearly the guy is going to be special.


So remove those four and he is sitting at ten. Right where I think he is.

You wouldn't find any GM's who agree with you.

Shaq causes more problems than Horford by a mile. Biedrins shot over 10% better than Horford. Okur scored 40% more than Horford and forces opposing bigs to come out and guard him. Horford's man was 5 feet off him all season.

And anyone who says Horford is a better center than Bynum has no clue about basketball.

[Rip2137]

Andrew Bynum has played good basketball for exactly one half of a season. I have no doubt that he is going to be better, but lets stop pretending that he has put to gether a season as good as Horfords since he has been in the league.

Shaq also caused problems for his team. Shaq is, at this point, barely better offensively, and not better defensively. Plus his freethrow shooting is a big problem for anyteam he will play as long as Hack a Shaq is allowed. Horford is a better defender, rebounder and almost as good of a scorer as Shaq right now.

What is scoring 40% more? He scored 4 more points than Al Horford taking 3 more shots than him in is unarguably the third option offensively for them. He also only shot 44 percent from the field, and averaged under 8 rebounds and doesn't play defense.

I can't believe that you are arguing that he is a better Center despite being worse at ever aspect of the game except jumpshooting.

[tontoz]

Andrew Bynum has played good basketball for exactly one half of a season. I have no doubt that he is going to be better, but lets stop pretending that he has put to gether a season as good as Horfords since he has been in the league.

Shaq also caused problems for his team. Shaq is, at this point, barely better offensively, and not better defensively. Plus his freethrow shooting is a big problem for anyteam he will play as long as Hack a Shaq is allowed. Horford is a better defender, rebounder and almost as good of a scorer as Shaq right now.

What is scoring 40% more? He scored 4 more points than Al Horford taking 3 more shots than him in is unarguably the third option offensively for them. He also only shot 44 percent from the field, and averaged under 8 rebounds and doesn't play defense.

I can't believe that you are arguing that he is a better Center despite being worse at ever aspect of the game except jumpshooting.

Go on the general board and say that Horford is better right now than Shaq, Bynum, Biedrins and Okur and see how hard they laugh.

[Rip2137]

Why do people pretend thats some kinda point. "See what the board says!!!"

I don't care. Refute a point.

HOW is Okur a better center than Horford when Horford is better at everything except jumpshooting? Its like saying Jason Kapono is a better player than Josh Smith despite Josh being better at EVERYTHING other than shooting.

HOW is Biedrins better?

How is Shaq better right now?

[HMFFL]

Created this topic for you guys to compare Al to whomever you want. It doesn't need to be involved with the Carmelo talk....so compare away.

[tontoz]

Why do people pretend thats some kinda point. "See what the board says!!!"

I don't care. Refute a point.

HOW is Okur a better center than Horford when Horford is better at everything except jumpshooting? Its like saying Jason Kapono is a better player than Josh Smith despite Josh being better at EVERYTHING other than shooting.

HOW is Biedrins better?

How is Shaq better right now?

Okur's opponents have to actually guard him. Horford's don't. How many times did we see Horford with the ball 18-20 feet away standing around waiting for someone to pass to? That kills the half court offense.

Okur plays with a bigtime rebounder right next to him so he isn't going to get 10 rebounds a game.

The Hawks were 26th in the league in PER differential at center and Horford played almost all of his minutes at center.

http://www.82games.com/BYPOSIT.HTM

Here are some guys with a PER higher than Horford's 14.73.

Dampier 15.37
Blatche 15.52
Nazr 15.85
Rasho 16.23
Haywood 18.37

That isn't exactly elite company. The only thing Horford did well is rebound. He doesn't score or block shots well and he struggled to guard bigger players.

[Rip2137]

And Kapono's oppenents have to guard him at the three point line and not Josh Smith. Because he is a better shooter.

Horford is a better

1: Rebounder
2: Defender
3: Shot blocker
4: Passer

Thats why he is a better Center. Mehmet is a better Small forward that Al Horford.

And I noticed that all of a sudden playing next to a big time rebounder its okay to have low rebounding numbers. Unless you are Josh Smith. Then its because you don't box out.

Mehmet Okur is a bad rebounder because he is a bad rebounder. I don't care if you are next to a good rebounder in Boozer under 8 rebounds for a 7 foot, 270lb center.

And once again, to PER. IF that is what you want to base your argument on, then fine, but lets just say I don't put too much stock into it. I mean the guys there already prove my point about per. Are you arguing that any of those guys are better centers than Horford?

And Horford did as good of a job guarding everyone he went against as anyone else. You pretend that if you are a good defender that means that the oppsing player never has a big game. It happens. Hell, Sheldon williams went for 20-13 and 11-15 against Rasheed Wallace. Its basketball...stuff happens. But to ignore all the great defensive games he gave for the bad ones is just ignoring what happened to serve your purpose.