Hawks Mirror Boston

M301E814W404 · Post #1 » by **M301E814W404** » Wed May 21, 2008 2:40 pm

Now not to be thinking crazy, but can we do next year what Boston did this year?

I think that if we let Acie run the point and S&T for Redd without giving up Smoove or Horford, we are very similar to the celtice. Young PG, 2 studs in Redd and JJ, and Smoove, Horford, and Zaza down low. Obviously we don't have KG, but I think that Horford and Smoove are both a lot better than andy other big man they have and are only going to get better and play with more energy.

Thoughts?

conleyorbust · Post #2 » by **conleyorbust** » Wed May 21, 2008 3:27 pm

What are you thinking? Like a Bibby for Redd straight up? We'd probably have to throw in Marv and take back a guy like Mason (works in checker) so that Mil could get a rebuilding peice out of it. They might even want to throw Mo W. in there instead and get rid of his contract too.

Anyway, it is conceivable we could make a trade for him without losing Joe/Josh/Al. Would we have to let Chil walk though? That would be a lot of money committed to Joe, Redd, and Josh.

killbuckner · Post #3 » by **killbuckner** » Wed May 21, 2008 3:56 pm

I just don't think there is any chance that bibby/marvin would get redd withotu the bucks adding in SIGNIFICANT salary baggage on top of that. Bibby is worth more than an expiring contract, but not a ton more until he shows he is healthier and more effective next seeason. I really don't think the Hawks could get a top 15 pick for Marvin (without taking back salary baggage).

Rip2137 · Post #4 » by **Rip2137** » Wed May 21, 2008 3:56 pm

I guess its a case of Bibby/Marv for Redd Mason.

that would work if we trust JJ to man the 3 spot for the whole season(I see no reason he couldn't). We would still need another point though. Plus I think it would be hard to hold on to Chill with having to pay David Andersen too. Although, Mason will be coming off the books when Chills and Josh's extension kicks in (If I am understanding things right)

killbuckner · Post #5 » by **killbuckner** » Wed May 21, 2008 4:13 pm

Rip- Childress and Josh's new salaries would start immediately.

parson · Post #6 » by **parson** » Wed May 21, 2008 4:14 pm

Watch the playoffs: the key is having players who can drive to the basket, jump into the defender and then take the "and one."

Redd would help us win in the regular season, then he'd be another Ray Allen in the playoffs.

No defense at the 2, reduced defense at the 3; I know all our players are trash and there is absolutely no redeeming feature in any of them ...(lol)... but we're going to let MIL out of salary cap hell (and put ourselves into it) for a jumpshooter who does little else?

conleyorbust · Post #7 » by **conleyorbust** » Wed May 21, 2008 4:25 pm

parson wrote:Watch the playoffs: the key is having players who can drive to the basket, jump into the defender and then take the "and one."

Redd would help us win in the regular season, then he'd be another Ray Allen in the playoffs.

No defense at the 2, reduced defense at the 3; I know all our players are trash and there is absolutely no redeeming feature in any of them ...(lol)... but we're going to let MIL out of salary cap hell (and put ourselves into it) for a jumpshooter who does little else?

Wow, you couldn't be more wrong.

Redd takes more free throws per game than anyone on our team. He takes over twice as many as Ray Allen. This season he was getting 7 a game, last season he was getting 8 a game.

I don't like Redd's game at all but come on man, you are just saying things to say them right now.

... and Joe Johnson is almost certainly a better defender than Marvin Williams at the 2 or the 3. Especially if you reduce the offensive burden on him by adding a guy like Redd.

tontoz · Post #8 » by **tontoz** » Wed May 21, 2008 4:29 pm

conleyorbust wrote:Wow, you couldn't be more wrong.

Redd takes more free throws per game than anyone on our team. He takes over twice as many as Ray Allen. This season he was getting 7 a game, last season he was getting 8 a game.

Seriously Redd and Allen are nothing alike. Redd can and does create for himself routinely off the dribble.

parson · Post #9 » by **parson** » Wed May 21, 2008 4:33 pm

I didn't mean he doesn't; I meant he wouldn't for us. If we put the ball in JJ's hands, Redd would be stuck out on the perimeter.

reazun · Post #10 » by **reazun** » Wed May 21, 2008 4:46 pm

I cant understand why we would do that? we just got Bibby and although he is streaky he hasnt been 100% yet. He has helped the team immensly. Law is not ready to man the point yet. Of course he probably never will be with Bibby, since Woody refuses to play anyone on the bench.

tontoz · Post #11 » by **tontoz** » Wed May 21, 2008 4:48 pm

parson wrote:I didn't mean he doesn't; I meant he wouldn't for us. If we put the ball in JJ's hands, Redd would be stuck out on the perimeter.

JJ isn't Lebron. I am sure he would welcome another big time scorer. JJ dribbles too much right now but his other options aren't that attractive so i can understand why he forces things at times.

Redd isn't a better player than JJ but he probably is a better scorer. And it would be nice for JJ if someone else was drawing a lot of defensive attention.

Rip2137 · Post #12 » by **Rip2137** » Wed May 21, 2008 4:51 pm

If by help immensly you mean two games under .500 then yeah. Bibby did that.

conleyorbust · Post #13 » by **conleyorbust** » Wed May 21, 2008 4:54 pm

killbuckner wrote:I just don't think there is any chance that bibby/marvin would get redd withotu the bucks adding in SIGNIFICANT salary baggage on top of that. Bibby is worth more than an expiring contract, but not a ton more until he shows he is healthier and more effective next seeason. I really don't think the Hawks could get a top 15 pick for Marvin (without taking back salary baggage).

I think Bibby/Marvin for Mason/Redd is fair-ish. Mason is basically just filler in this case, Marvin is an average SF with some potential and Redd, as talented a scorer as he is, is far too flawed to be what the Bucks want him to be and as overpaid as anyone in the league.

If it was something we really wanted to do but the Bucks didn't, we could switch Mason for Simmons and throw Zaza's expiring in there but that REALLY tilts things in their favor.

Bibby/Marv for Redd/Mason is a classic Detroit move (Hammond being from Detroit). Get rid of a massively overpaid dude for a young guy and give him a trial run (well at least thats how they got Rip Hamilton).

M301E814W404 · Post #14 » by **M301E814W404** » Wed May 21, 2008 4:57 pm

I think Redd is better than Allen, JJ is better than Pierce, and the Smoove/Horford Combo wouldnt have to pick up as much slack as KG/ whatever (Please Use More Appropriate Word) center they have in the game. I also thinkt hat with confidence, Law would be fine at the point.

parson · Post #15 » by **parson** » Wed May 21, 2008 5:02 pm

tontoz wrote:JJ isn't Lebron. I am sure he would welcome another big time scorer. JJ dribbles too much right now but his other options aren't that attractive so i can understand why he forces things at times.

Redd isn't a better player than JJ but he probably is a better scorer. And it would be nice for JJ if someone else was drawing a lot of defensive attention.

But JJ dominates the ball by design, not because of a lack of options. Woodson has said many times he wants the ball in JJ's hands at crunch time. I agree that JJ pounds the ball too much, but he is being told to.

If we're going to trade, shouldn't we trade for someone who matches our present players' talents? When we give the ball to JJ, Horford is circling the post and we want Smoove off the perimeter, so where would we put Redd? If we put Redd on the wings, looking to flash down low, doesn't that make Smoove our designated outside shooter (what we have Marvin doing now)?

And shouldn't we seek to improve our defense? Redd is much, much worse at the 2 defensively and JJ is small and not very long at the 3.

Add in that, although I don't know who is telling the truth, but there are accusations flying everywhere about selfish play concerning almost all the Bucks, but especially Redd.

On our team, I don't believe that both JJ and Redd could dominate the ball the way they do now. One of 'em would have to become a perimeter shooter.

tontoz · Post #16 » by **tontoz** » Wed May 21, 2008 5:15 pm

And shouldn't we seek to improve our defense? Redd is much, much worse at the 2 defensively and JJ is small and not very long at the 3.

Huh? JJ is 1/4" shorter than Smith and Marvin and probably stronger than both.

But JJ dominates the ball by design, not because of a lack of options.

Obviously we need a new coach but that is a separate issue.

If we're going to trade, shouldn't we trade for someone who matches our present players' talents?

We need someone who can score from the perimeter.
We need a legit second scoring option to prevent the constant doubles that JJ faces.
We need someone who can create his own shot off the dribble.

Redd fits the bill.

When we give the ball to JJ, Horford is circling the post and we want Smoove off the perimeter, so where would we put Redd? If we put Redd on the wings, looking to flash down low, doesn't that make Smoove our designated outside shooter (what we have Marvin doing now)?

Huh? why would Redd be looking to flash to the basket? He should stay on the perimeter to spread out the defense.

Having Redd would make it less likely that Smith would be hanging out on the perimeter.

parson · Post #17 » by **parson** » Wed May 21, 2008 5:23 pm

tontoz wrote:Huh? why would Redd be looking to flash to the basket? He should stay on the perimeter to spread out the defense.

Didn't you just agree with me with your last statement? Y'all gave me grief a minute ago for not wanting Redd and his FTs. My point was, in our offense, Redd would be mostly a perimeter shooter.

Where will all the FTs go when Redd is "on the perimeter to spread out the defense" as you say?

tontoz · Post #18 » by **tontoz** » Wed May 21, 2008 5:26 pm

Didn't you just agree with me with your last statement? Y'all gave me grief a minute ago for not wanting Redd and his FTs. My point was, in our offense, Redd would be mostly a perimeter shooter.

Where will all the FTs go when Redd is "on the perimeter to spread out the defense" as you say?

Just because he catches the ball on the perimeter doesn't mean he can't dribble after he gets it. What do you think he does with the Bucks?

parson · Post #19 » by **parson** » Wed May 21, 2008 5:28 pm

Now, if we had a penetrating PG, like TJ Ford, we could put put JJ and Redd deep on the elbows, with Smoove and Horford on the baseline.

If we had a young Shaq, we could put JJ and Redd on the 3pt. line and let Horford play high post and Smoove backside...

... but putting Redd with our present team doesn't work.

Rip2137 · Post #20 » by **Rip2137** » Wed May 21, 2008 5:30 pm

Parson, Marvin Williams was second on the team in FTA and he was primarily a jumpshooter for Joe to outlet to.

Redd is a better jumpshooter than Marvin and does just as good a job getting to the line.

The difference is he gives you also a 3 point shooter. and we get a drop in defense.

In that trade, Acie is the point and the D at the position would increase over Bibby, so overall, I think the defensive impact on the team won't be that bad, but offensively we get alot better.