ATL / NY v2

[Harry10]

ATL gets: Q Rich, Crawford, #6

NY gets: Bibby, Marvin

Bibby showed me that Joe doesn't need a PG, he just needs a scoring guard, Crawford can do that. Q is Joe's old teammate and i would like to see some 3pt shooters around Joe. and finally with #6, ATL gets Westbrook. the PG due of Law, Westbrook could be good and deep.

i put this trade on the NY board and got mixed responce. some where okay with it, some where not.

[HoopsGuru25]

I'd do it but there is no incentive for the Knicks to do if they have to give up their pick along with it.

Your analysis is right about the Hawks not needing a real point guard next to a player like Joe. I view Crawford as a poor mans Brandon Roy. He has all the skills to be the ideal hybrid guard but he's never really put it together...he can't be as inconsistent and as bad as defense as Bibby though. I wouldn't mind Crawford on the Hawks but I'm not really sure what his value is around the league or if D'Antoni wants to trade him. I'd rather go after Hinrich because he's a lock to be available if Rose goes 1st and he's a much better defender than Crawford or Bibby.

[Harry10]

some NYers like it some do not. it was not laughed off the board

[HoopsGuru25]

some NYers like it some do not. it was not laughed off the board

That's because there is no consensus on Crawford. Some hate him and view him as a horrible contract. Remember...Crawford's teams have always been horrible. He is challenging Shareef but most consecutive years on a bad team. I view him as an upgrade to Bibby since he is able to create his own shot off the dribble(along with being able to hit the 3). A team like the Knicks might not need him since they already have 3-4 other players who dominate the ball while we just have one in Joe.

I personally view it as horrible for New York. The Knicks goal is to get under the cap by the summer of 2010. Crawford and Richardson expire in 2010. Even if I hated Crawford, I'd rather buy him out than sacrifice the 6th pick in the draft just to get rid of him. If you trade the 6th pick it's only logical that you would involve Curry or Randolph in the trade.

[ATLfan]

We do not need Jamal Crawful on this team.

[evildallas]

I actually like it. Crawford is the Knick I would most consider adding. Although I kind of prefer Jeffries to QRich because of his defensive prowess and so would NY's front office (his contract goes one year longer and getting him off the books helps in the summer 2010 free agency drive), I realize he doesn't make the math work (although the cap hold on the #6 pick might make the math work). I'll assume it is Q Richardson for now since I'm not sure.

I'm don't think I'd go Russell Westbrook in the draft. A duo of rookie and second year PGs while talented aren't exactly what a coach likes.
By acquiring Crawford, we are either committing to a big combo guard back court or possibly moving Joe to SF and acquiring another PG. 6 is higher than I've seen Russell Westbrook projected on any draft board, I'd look to see if OJ Mayo or Brook Lopez drop first because I think either offers better value at the pick than Russell Westbrook. I'm going to assume Lopez for now, but I'm intrigued by Mayo star potential.

My other thought is that this isn't the last trade of the summer. The possibility to explore a S&T of Josh Childress along with Zaza for a PG like TJ Ford or Kurt Hinrich. I really prefer Ford, but Hinrich might be easier to obtain.

Winding up with something like this for a roster:
Hinrich/Law
Crawford/Q. Richardson/Mario
Joe/J. Richardson
Josh/David Andersen
Al/Brook Lopez/Solomon

The other thing I would like to do with that is pick up a 2nd round draft pick to invest in a bulking PF for contrast (I still like Joey Dorsey or DJ White for that). If Speedy retires and we are granted some relief to sign a replacement I wouldn't mind another PG in the mix on the roster of 15 in case of injury.

The key to this roster is that it can go big with Crawford/Joe/Josh/Al/Brook or small as it was originally listed. It's capable of quality rotations at each position giving a lot of matchup flexibility.
PG - Hinrich/Law/Crawford/Joe
SG - Crawford/Joe/QRich/Mario/Hinrich/Law
SF - Joe/Crawford/QRich/JRich/JSmith
PF - JSmith/Al/David Andersen/Solomon
C - Al/David Andersen/Brook Lopez/Solomon

That's a big improvement over our current roster. I think it is even better with Ford over Hinrich because of his penetration ability (also better for contract length). I'd prefer to keep Childress over Q. Richardson, but logically I think the S&T of Childress is more likely to fetch a PG (Hopefully, I'm wrong about that and we could get Hinrich for Richardson).

[HoopsGuru25]

I just don't see any scenario in which the Knicks would do the orignial trade. Crawford and Richardson make alot but their contract expires before 2010 and both of those players stretch the defense which D'Antoni likes.

Crawford/Curry/6 for Bibby/Marvin is probably the price you are going to have to pay if you want the 6th pick.

[HoopsGuru25]

You could probably throw in a protected pick from our side to that proposal as well seeing as we wouldn't need it.

[Harry10]

I just don't see any scenario in which the Knicks would do the orignial trade. Crawford and Richardson make alot but their contract expires before 2010 and both of those players stretch the defense which D'Antoni likes.

Crawford/Curry/6 for Bibby/Marvin is probably the price you are going to have to pay if you want the 6th pick.

i think NYers are still high on Curry, they really blame Zack for alot

[HoopsGuru25]

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i think NYers are still high on Curry, they really blame Zack for alot

Really? I view him as a bad contract who I would have to trade. I would definitely send Curry out before a player like Richardson.

It doesn't really matter though. It seems like no one on their board wants to do your original trade and everyone is either offering garbage like Jeffries/Richardson/etc/6 for Marvin/Bibby or the 6 for Josh Smith. The real value of the trade is probably somewhere in between what the two fan bases want. The Hawks really have no use for players like Jeffries and Randolph because(not only do they have terrible deals)they play the positions in which we need the least help at which is the 3 and the 4.

On the trade checker it says Marbury can't be traded for some reason. Is Marbury/Curry/6 for Bibby/Marvin/Zaza a good deal? I don't particularly care for Marbury(like some on this board)but that is a deal I'd be interested in doing.

[parson]

I like everything about Crawford except his shot. Problem is, I think his poor shot is a fatal flaw, negating his other skills.

What's more, I don't think he'll ever fix it.

The question, then, becomes Marvin/Bibby for the 6th, which would only make sense if we drafted Robin Lopez or DeAndre Jordan. Would I do that? No.

[Skyhawk1]

ATL gets: Q Rich, Crawford, #6

NY gets: Bibby, Marvin

Bibby showed me that Joe doesn't need a PG, he just needs a scoring guard, Crawford can do that.

How in the world JJ doesn't need a PG ? Have you watched him before and after Bibby ? I know Bibby isn't great and all, but I think it's just unbelivable that any Hawks fan think we can win without a true PG. Haven't you seen this team in the last 6 years ? I'm totally against trades that ship Bibby out and leave us with either draft picks or Acie Law. It was clear last year that Law isn't ready to start, he wasn't even close to it actually.

[Harry10]

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How in the world JJ doesn't need a PG ? Have you watched him before and after Bibby ? I know Bibby isn't great and all, but I think it's just unbelivable that any Hawks fan think we can win without a true PG. Haven't you seen this team in the last 6 years ? I'm totally against trades that ship Bibby out and leave us with either draft picks or Acie Law. It was clear last year that Law isn't ready to start, he wasn't even close to it actually.

your first mistake is to think that Bibby is a PG.

[HoopsGuru25]

Crawford shot 48% on jumpshots and less than half of his shots were assisted. I'd say he is a good shooter...a bit of a chucker but his jumpshot is definitely not a weakness. He's definitely a more useful player than Bibby.

The Hawks are never going to get the 6th pick for Marvin/Bibby w/o taking a bad contract back. Randolph(along with his obvious deficiencies) is a bad teammate and also plays a position where we don't need help at. Curry(who also has flaws but plays a position of need) is likely the best the Hawks can get if they really want the 6th pick. If New York is really talking about trading Randolph/6 for Reggie Evans/16 then we really should be offering Marvin/Bibby for Curry/6/filler. You pray that Curry goes back to playing like he did in Chicago(where he was a below average defender but still gave an effort)and pray that you get a franchise player with the 6th pick.

[Harry10]

^ amen

Bibby and Crawford's PG skills are about even, Crawford is 6'5. both are good shooters, Crawford is a chucker, but so is Bibby. Bibby's defense is about a "C" and Crawford's defense is about a "C+"

Q Rich is useless and a bad contract, but i think if he plays along side Joe again, he will be able to contribute.

[HoopsGuru25]

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How in the world JJ doesn't need a PG ? Have you watched him before and after Bibby ? I know Bibby isn't great and all, but I think it's just unbelivable that any Hawks fan think we can win without a true PG. Haven't you seen this team in the last 6 years ? I'm totally against trades that ship Bibby out and leave us with either draft picks or Acie Law. It was clear last year that Law isn't ready to start, he wasn't even close to it actually.

Bibby did very little in terms of creating shots for himself or others. He is as much of a true point guard as Joe is. His primary value to the Hawks was as a shooter. Joe accounted for over half of the Hawks 3 point shots before the Bibby trade(which is crazy). After we got Bibby...teams couldn't double Joe as much and if they did Bibby would get an open 3. I don't see how this would change with Crawford here seeing as he is also good outside shooter. Just the threat of having a shooter like Bibby(or Crawford)on the floor opens up the offense even when he's cold(like during the entire month of April). The Hawks offense would probably be better with Crawford than Bibby considering that Crawford can actually score off the dribble in 1 on 1 situations unlike Bibby.

[parson]

Crawford shot 48% on jumpshots and less than half of his shots were assisted. I'd say he is a good shooter...a bit of a chucker but his jumpshot is definitely not a weakness. He's definitely a more useful player than Bibby.

I must have missed all Crawford's good games because all I ever saw was a terrible shooter who just tossed up shot after shot without conscience. Sometimes he was the blind hog finding the acorn but never did he look like he knew what he was doing with his shot.

I assume you're talking about Crawford's effective fg% for jump shots, since his actual overall % was 41% - a figure boosted by his inside shots. In that case, Bibby was better, shooting at an efg% of 50.3%. If that's not what you're talking about, I apologize. I'm not much at the sabermatrics of basketball.

At any rate, shooting %s are only part of the equation. Bibby shot slightly better but he was deadly if left alone. Defending Crawford didn't seem to matter much, his shots were pretty much the result of luck whether you defended him or not.

[HoopsGuru25]

parson I'm talking about what Crawford shot on jumpshots which was .479% and less than half of his jumpers were assisted. That ranks up there with players like Joe,Redd,Carter,etc. Now Crawford obviously isn't as good as those players(and you are going to be bad if hes your leading scorer)but it just shows you that he can shoot. He has a poor shot selection but apart of that comes with the territory of being on a crappy team.

http://www.82games.com/0708/07NYK3A.HTM

Bibby did a good job shooting the 3 with the Hawks(in the regular season)...but part of that is because he played off Joe. I guarantee Bibby doesn't get those same looks if he plays next to Fred Jones or Quentin Richardson. I think Crawford's scoring efficiency would go up if he played with another player who draws as much defensive attention as Joe. Crawford was actually slightly more efficient as a scorer than Bibby last year despite shooting more and playing with worse teammates. I would talk about how Crawford's defense is below average but I've seen stretches where Crawford actually played solid man to man defense while Bibby's defense is just consistently horrible. I can't really think of a reason as to why I'd prefer Bibby over Crawford.

[Skyhawk1]

Bibby and Crawford's PG skills are about even

You're clueless about basketball skills !

[CWell]

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You're clueless about basketball skills !

I don't know.Bibby came off as just a shooter to me last year too.And from his days in Sacramento,I don't remember him being much of a florr general.It was long ago so I may just have forgotten,but I just remember Bibby launching jumpers.That's what kills me about how Woodson finally got a real PG and blah blah blah when the truth is Bibby didn't do most of what normal PG's do.All Bibby brought was another shooter.Heck we could have prolly made the playoffs with Jason Kapono at PG lol j/k.Joe would take all the attention and Bibby would have the open 3.The offense still didn't look fluid or NBA calibur.It still looked like crap,but on the stat sheet we scored more.