Pardon me for interrupting the "trade Marvin" threads with something unimportant, but who believes the NBA is fixing their games?
I, for one, do. I know that makes me a kook to some. You may even think I wear tinfoil hats and knock on wood to make sure there're no hidden panels that evil gnomes can jump out of.
Still, as a fan of a team I've never seen, in 5 decades of being a fan, get one break from the NBA, is it unreasonable to believe that some other teams are getting the breaks we don't get?
Who believes Tim Donaghy?
Moderators: dms269, HMFFL, Jamaaliver
Who believes Tim Donaghy?
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parson
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Who believes Tim Donaghy?
My mother told me, she said, "Elwood, to make it in this world you either have to be oh, so clever or oh, so pleasant." Well, for years I was clever; I recommend pleasant.
Elwood P. Dowd (Jimmy Stewart, in the film "Harvey")
Elwood P. Dowd (Jimmy Stewart, in the film "Harvey")
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NWO4Life
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Did you know...
Harrah's sports book is not taking bets on the LA / Celtics finals?
The reason why is the ceo for harrah's is a part owner in the celtics.
With all the moneys involved the battle of influence can swing the outcome of any war. Far to much money floating around out there for it not to be relevant to the equation...
just something to chew on
Harrah's sports book is not taking bets on the LA / Celtics finals?
The reason why is the ceo for harrah's is a part owner in the celtics.
With all the moneys involved the battle of influence can swing the outcome of any war. Far to much money floating around out there for it not to be relevant to the equation...
just something to chew on
VOTE Rod Strickland into the H.O.F.!!!
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AU hawksfan
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As far as not getting breaks, a team's status and star power can also have a lot to do with that. Even though they eventually lost, look at the amount of calls the Spurs got in the playoffs this year.
I definitely do believe that games have been rigged in the past, as Donaghy says. As for now, no telling. It wouldn't surprise me.
I definitely do believe that games have been rigged in the past, as Donaghy says. As for now, no telling. It wouldn't surprise me.
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HMFFL
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NWO4Life wrote:Did you know...
Harrah's sports book is not taking bets on the LA / Celtics finals?
The reason why is the ceo for harrah's is a part owner in the celtics.
With all the moneys involved the battle of influence can swing the outcome of any war. Far to much money floating around out there for it not to be relevant to the equation...
just something to chew on
Just like the Palms in Vegas you can't bet on any NBA games.
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D21
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There's two different thing, fixing games for a betting thing, and fixing games for the NBA.
The first one proves to exist, the second can be considered.
We can't be sure about anything at this moment, but if it was the case on some series/games, it would not surprise me if the Lakers games in 2000 against POR, and in 2002 against SAC, were fixed.
Same thing on some S.A. games against PHX, even if S.A. can't count on help this year in WCF with the opportunity to get possible L.A.-Boston Finals
It's hard to believe, but with all the strange calls we saw in the past (and KG not being suspended), I think we can't say "there is no fixed game", even if some NBA officials are saying the opposite.
The first one proves to exist, the second can be considered.
We can't be sure about anything at this moment, but if it was the case on some series/games, it would not surprise me if the Lakers games in 2000 against POR, and in 2002 against SAC, were fixed.
Same thing on some S.A. games against PHX, even if S.A. can't count on help this year in WCF with the opportunity to get possible L.A.-Boston Finals
It's hard to believe, but with all the strange calls we saw in the past (and KG not being suspended), I think we can't say "there is no fixed game", even if some NBA officials are saying the opposite.
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Rip2137
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I can say the NBA isn't fixing games. I think it is ridiculous to think so. Has there been some poorly officiated games? heck yeah. Has the league made some questionable decisions? Yeah. Are they calling refs before games and saying "Make sure it goes to 7?" hell no.
If so Pistons/Spurs wouldn't have happened. It could have been Suns(highest rated team with MVP winner Steve Nash) and Miami Heat (MVP runner up Shaq) in the finals. Why in gods name would they allow that to happen when the other matchup is a ratings MONSTER.
These men are not going to risk their freedom and every penny they have so that they can get a few extra viewers of a series.
Plus, its a yearly thing were the NBA has its ref evaluations. EVERY year some are fired with no warning. Some have been very angry, even suing the league. Don't you think that maybe ONE of these dozens of individuals over the last decade or so would have mentioned that "Yeah, AND the league officials tell us who they want to win."
The ONLY person to say something happens to be the game fixing, game gambling guy that is about to go to prison.
Sometimes I think you have to consider the source. If this was even slightly supported by any other ref that had ever reffed a game, then fine. But all these people who have grudges against the league never went to the goverment and cashed in on the multimillion dollar book deal sure to be had out of this? I just don't see that as being true.
If so Pistons/Spurs wouldn't have happened. It could have been Suns(highest rated team with MVP winner Steve Nash) and Miami Heat (MVP runner up Shaq) in the finals. Why in gods name would they allow that to happen when the other matchup is a ratings MONSTER.
These men are not going to risk their freedom and every penny they have so that they can get a few extra viewers of a series.
Plus, its a yearly thing were the NBA has its ref evaluations. EVERY year some are fired with no warning. Some have been very angry, even suing the league. Don't you think that maybe ONE of these dozens of individuals over the last decade or so would have mentioned that "Yeah, AND the league officials tell us who they want to win."
The ONLY person to say something happens to be the game fixing, game gambling guy that is about to go to prison.
Sometimes I think you have to consider the source. If this was even slightly supported by any other ref that had ever reffed a game, then fine. But all these people who have grudges against the league never went to the goverment and cashed in on the multimillion dollar book deal sure to be had out of this? I just don't see that as being true.
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D21
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Right, but I also just have a hard time believing anyone who is now trying to be sure to reduce that kind of thing to only one guy and a so big monster... Big sentence on big monster also hide all the other little things, it helps forget.HoopsGuru25 wrote:I think the Lakers King game 6 game is one of the most poorly officiating games of all time but I can see why he would use that game in particular if he were making all this up. I just have a hard time believing anyone who is now trying to tell the truth when their jail sentence depends on it.
Not saying he's telling the truth, not saying NBA is not telling the truth, but it can't be that simple, just like in a movie.
And some games could also have been fixed for other reasons, it's not necessarily NBA asking it to the ref.
Italian football league already faced ref corruption, but I think it was made by team officials, not league for marketing purpose.
The guilty teams got negative record to start to following season, and some were put in the lower league (a thing that can't happen in the NBA).
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saloonyk8
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I'll start by saying that I don't know the truth. But here are a few of my observations:
1.) 50% of people in federal prisons are there with the testimony of convicted felons. Food for thought.
2.) Under Tim Donaghy's agreement, if he lies about anything he's going to get the book thrown at him. If he had said nothing, presumably, he would have gotten a light sentence.
3.) Donaghy's statements this week came in response to the NBA seeking out $1M in restitution against him. First, Donaghy probably doesn't have a nickel to his name right now. Second, they're seeking the money saying that's what they spent to investigate his claims. It's really weird that would 'go after' restitution from him because restitution in a legal sense is reserved for when someone makes a contract with you and they misled you. Legally speaking, I understand it's a complete farce. Why would the NBA do this, I have no idea.
4.) The game is question was pretty ridiculous. Here's an excerpt from an espn article on this issue:
"...a foul was called against Mike Bibby of the Kings after he was shoved and elbowed by Kobe Bryant, denying the Kings an opportunity to try for a tying basket. Also in that game, Kings centers Vlade Divac and Scot Pollard fouled out, and Kings coach Rick Adelman was highly critical of the officiating afterward. "My first thought [upon hearing Donaghy's allegation] was: I knew it," Pollard said Tuesday night. "I'm not going to say there was a conspiracy. I just think something wasn't right. It was unfair. We didn't have a chance to win that game."
5.) Cuban has been calling for an independently run referee head which the NBA refuses to do. At least now they really should consider it, I guess.
6.) The NBA has never done anything proactive to address years of complaints about the league 'fixing' stuff. They created this mess for themselves.
1.) 50% of people in federal prisons are there with the testimony of convicted felons. Food for thought.
2.) Under Tim Donaghy's agreement, if he lies about anything he's going to get the book thrown at him. If he had said nothing, presumably, he would have gotten a light sentence.
3.) Donaghy's statements this week came in response to the NBA seeking out $1M in restitution against him. First, Donaghy probably doesn't have a nickel to his name right now. Second, they're seeking the money saying that's what they spent to investigate his claims. It's really weird that would 'go after' restitution from him because restitution in a legal sense is reserved for when someone makes a contract with you and they misled you. Legally speaking, I understand it's a complete farce. Why would the NBA do this, I have no idea.
4.) The game is question was pretty ridiculous. Here's an excerpt from an espn article on this issue:
"...a foul was called against Mike Bibby of the Kings after he was shoved and elbowed by Kobe Bryant, denying the Kings an opportunity to try for a tying basket. Also in that game, Kings centers Vlade Divac and Scot Pollard fouled out, and Kings coach Rick Adelman was highly critical of the officiating afterward. "My first thought [upon hearing Donaghy's allegation] was: I knew it," Pollard said Tuesday night. "I'm not going to say there was a conspiracy. I just think something wasn't right. It was unfair. We didn't have a chance to win that game."
5.) Cuban has been calling for an independently run referee head which the NBA refuses to do. At least now they really should consider it, I guess.
6.) The NBA has never done anything proactive to address years of complaints about the league 'fixing' stuff. They created this mess for themselves.
Commit to the process
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Hawks
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After listening to the experts and just random people on the net. I have come to the conclusion that whatever this Ref is throwing out there is not worth the time of day. I think the fact he is using that Lakers/Kings game as his trump card to prove the NBA and Refs rig games. It just shoots his credibility shreds.
Considering this info he told the Feds sometime last year. I have yet to hear the Feds found anything to back it up. Trust me if they would have found something we would have heard something already. There would have been some inside source within the Fed looking to make an extra buck and would have sold this story to the media. This Ref is going down and is trying to take anyone he can down with him.
It is a shame that trash like this guy has more credibility than someone like Stern. That is the era of sports we live in today. Hopefully the one positive that will come out of this is the Refs will ref the games better. There is no doubt the Refs are bias toward certain teams and players. However, it doesn't mean they are rigging games.
Considering this info he told the Feds sometime last year. I have yet to hear the Feds found anything to back it up. Trust me if they would have found something we would have heard something already. There would have been some inside source within the Fed looking to make an extra buck and would have sold this story to the media. This Ref is going down and is trying to take anyone he can down with him.
It is a shame that trash like this guy has more credibility than someone like Stern. That is the era of sports we live in today. Hopefully the one positive that will come out of this is the Refs will ref the games better. There is no doubt the Refs are bias toward certain teams and players. However, it doesn't mean they are rigging games.
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Rip2137
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Not saying that they didn;t bring it on themselves, but at the end of the day people are saying that NBA officials and the top guys in the league and long tenured refs all risked throwing away their freedom, professional lives and control over a BILLION dollar industry so that they could extend this ONE series ONE game. And this is on the word of a guy that A: Is a criminal that fixed the game for money and B: Hated his coworkers, to the point that he had gotten in fist fight with Joey Crawford.
He is trying to destory their careers and the creditbility of the league because his career and creditbility is destroyed. While yes, he would get more years if he lies, you have to prove that he is lying. This is pretty much unproveable either way(he said their were phone calls, so its not like it can be proven either way).
We aren't dealing with a moron here. He knows exactly what he is doing. If nothing else, he is drumming up pub for his tell all book that will be available next year.
He is trying to destory their careers and the creditbility of the league because his career and creditbility is destroyed. While yes, he would get more years if he lies, you have to prove that he is lying. This is pretty much unproveable either way(he said their were phone calls, so its not like it can be proven either way).
We aren't dealing with a moron here. He knows exactly what he is doing. If nothing else, he is drumming up pub for his tell all book that will be available next year.
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parson
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Years ago, I read an interview with Marty Blake (I'm pretty sure it was in the Atlanta/Journal Constitution) where he said that, in the 1950's, owners cried so much about their star players fouling out - and hurting ticket sales - that the NBA told refs to ease up on the stars.
My mother told me, she said, "Elwood, to make it in this world you either have to be oh, so clever or oh, so pleasant." Well, for years I was clever; I recommend pleasant.
Elwood P. Dowd (Jimmy Stewart, in the film "Harvey")
Elwood P. Dowd (Jimmy Stewart, in the film "Harvey")
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evildallas
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Here's my take. Like Saloonyk8 said these are old claims that only came out in response to the NBA seeking restitution. I believe he believes what he is saying. I suspect the reason nothing has come of it is that he had no proof. He has to cooperate completely and tell the truth. I suspect at some point he was asked can you think of any other games that may have been fixed given your experience as a ref who fixed games. He could have answered with his suspicions, but had nothing to corroborate his feelings. The accusations is that the refs were acting as good company men. As long as they didn't bet or give information to others to bet the feds would have been unable to separate incompetent from illegal. The league officials would be safe also if they didn't bet, didn't give info to others to bet, and didn't order the refs to cheat. Without a gambling element or a traceable set of orders what could the feds do.
As for the league investigating, given the accusation of following league order, I wouldn't have expected anything to come up in a league run investigation. The league reviews officials, grades them, sends them feedback. The league can easily influence a ref's behavior without explicitly telling them to cheat. If the ref calls more than one game in the series (which is common) you can tailor your feedback from his 1st game to influence 2nd game. It's an inexact science, but it could have the desired result. For instance, if you tell a ref he's calling contact too closely or that he appears to be giving too many judgment calls to the Kings, then the next game he lets more contact go and the Lakers get the advantage on judgment calls as he seeks to remedy his mistakes to be more fair.
I've thought a lot of games have been unfairly called over the years but it is hard to separate fixed from totally incompetent. I don't think Donaghy had any proof that could be followed, just his feelings that those games were fixed. If he had heard from another person that they were ordered to do this then the investigation would have gone farther because the feds would have someone else to question. I believe it's possible for no one to act overtly illegal and still wind up with an unfair game.
If he has no direct proof then he's just another knowledgeable conspiracy theorist. I feel if he had offered proof to go with his accusations the story would have broken earlier and messier. I also feel the NBA has a credibility problem and consistency and quality problems with officiating. I don't have to believe Donaghy to feel that.
As for the league investigating, given the accusation of following league order, I wouldn't have expected anything to come up in a league run investigation. The league reviews officials, grades them, sends them feedback. The league can easily influence a ref's behavior without explicitly telling them to cheat. If the ref calls more than one game in the series (which is common) you can tailor your feedback from his 1st game to influence 2nd game. It's an inexact science, but it could have the desired result. For instance, if you tell a ref he's calling contact too closely or that he appears to be giving too many judgment calls to the Kings, then the next game he lets more contact go and the Lakers get the advantage on judgment calls as he seeks to remedy his mistakes to be more fair.
I've thought a lot of games have been unfairly called over the years but it is hard to separate fixed from totally incompetent. I don't think Donaghy had any proof that could be followed, just his feelings that those games were fixed. If he had heard from another person that they were ordered to do this then the investigation would have gone farther because the feds would have someone else to question. I believe it's possible for no one to act overtly illegal and still wind up with an unfair game.
If he has no direct proof then he's just another knowledgeable conspiracy theorist. I feel if he had offered proof to go with his accusations the story would have broken earlier and messier. I also feel the NBA has a credibility problem and consistency and quality problems with officiating. I don't have to believe Donaghy to feel that.
Going to donkey punch a leprechaun!
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killbuckner
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I don't think that Donaghy would have lied to the feds about that. He was already caught red handed- lying to the feds would just make it dramatically worse for him. He isn't coming up with these stories out of retaliation now. He said all of this months ago when he was trying to show how cooperative he could be. What possible benefit could he get from lying to the feds about that!?
Re: Who believes Tim Donaghy?
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tontoz
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Re: Who believes Tim Donaghy?
parson wrote:Pardon me for interrupting the "trade Marvin" threads with something unimportant, but who believes the NBA is fixing their games?
I, for one, do. I know that makes me a kook to some. You may even think I wear tinfoil hats and knock on wood to make sure there're no hidden panels that evil gnomes can jump out of.
[b]Still, as a fan of a team I've never seen, in 5 decades of being a fan, get one break from the NBA, [/b]is it unreasonable to believe that some other teams are getting the breaks we don't get?
I guess you missed the Toronto game where the shot clock was started (by a ref) before Ford touched the ball on what would have been a game winning layup. Or the play before when the refs could have easily ruled the ball went off Smith, giving the Raps the ball back. Instead the Hawks got the ball and Bibby hit that 3 in the corner.