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Hmm, will Joe get credit or will he once again be looked at as just a serviceable player?


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He's top 4, maybe top 3. Kobe is a step ahead of everyone else. D. Wade in shape, not the one of last season after coming back from injuries is a bit ahead of him as well. Manu is clutch, I mean, he's almost unstopable when he's on, and he plays for a power house, so I think he deserves top3 consideration, then it's JJ. There's no way in hell I'd trade him for T-Mac. JJ can score from almost anywhere, can handle the ball ( Rip Hamilton, R. Allen, and many others can't), he can rebound (Just watch M. Redd), and dish the ball out. He's the best player to put on a Hawks jersey in almost a decade, that should tell you something.

lol- the sad part is that the best player to put on a Hawks jersey in the past decade very well might be Rasheed Wallace.

I'd put Kobe, Wade, Manu, and Roy ahead of Joe. I like Joe more than TMac because he is so much more durable, the guy plays big minutes every year and doesn't miss games (with the exception of 06-07).

Yet another article with absolutely no idea about the Hawks. Since when has Joe been "frequently rotating" between PG, SG, and SF?

JoshB914 wrote:I'd put Kobe, Wade, Manu, and Roy ahead of Joe. I like Joe more than TMac because he is so much more durable, the guy plays big minutes every year and doesn't miss games (with the exception of 06-07).

Yet another article with absolutely no idea about the Hawks. Since when has Joe been "frequently rotating" between PG, SG, and SF?

Hmmm...

I also like Kobe, Wade, and Manu over Joe. After than I feel like he could go anywhere from 4-12 depending on what criteria you are judging him by. If you were to rank the entirety of his season last year, there are quite a few guys that gave their teams more wins over the course of the season (don't forget that he had a rough go of it for over half the season). If you are going to judge him by his peak value and ability (in this case the last month and a half of the season), he's almost inarguably 4 at this point because I don't think there is another guard beyond those top three that has the ability to put up 25ppg - 7ast with insane shooting from deep for a solid 20 games.

Since I fully expect Bibby's presence to continue to have a positive effect on Joe's scoring efficiency and I don't see anyone else surpassing what Joe can do when he's on, I'll say he's 4.

I think Joe plays quite a bit of pg, I also think that hurts him because he isn't a phenomenally quick guy and one of the reasons he can tire out and start missing jumpers is because he has to beat quick pgs pressing him too often. Also, he can't get into the high post or on the baseline as easily when he is running the offense like he often does. Thats the reason Bibby's presence is going to help him in my opinion.

I've been meaning to open a similar thread for a week now. Both CBS Sports online and foxsports.com have ranked the top shooting guards and placed Joe as #5. Behind Manu, T-Mac, DWade and Kobe. But only #22 overall in the league amongst all players.

At 6-foot-7, 235 pounds, his combination of size, strength, ballhandling ability and shooting range make him the closest player to LeBron James. Questioned for his leadership ability and sometimes vanishing act, in his three seasons since coming to the Hawks from the Suns, Johnson has averaged 22.0 points, 5.7 assists and 4.3 rebounds — frequently rotating between point guard, shooting guard and small forward

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/pgStory?contentId=8579760#sport=NBA&photo=8580530

He has the versatility to play three positions, and his size precludes other teams from matching up against him with smallish guards. Johnson was a big-time scorer two years ago, averaging 25 points per game, and last year he reined it in some because he had more weapons around him.

http://www.sportsline.com/nba/story/10990447

Manu makes the whole list a joke.... put Rip, Carter, Iverson, or Joe with Duncan, and you have a team that might be able to take the Jordan Bulls to 7 games.

also, Roy better than Vince??? i'm a big Roy fan, and he will probably be better than Vince in his prime, but as of now Roy is not better than Vince. Roy could have a break out year this year because of Odon, but still Vince is a guy who can carry a bad team with no help to 500.

I think the point about Roy is that he's a better passer and defender than Vince and his impact goes beyond the statistical. Vince is obviously still more athletic, a better shooter, a more prolific rebounder and a very good passer in his own right but his approach to the game differs greatly from Roy's.

I think it's a reasonable, if unclear, argument to be made (at least on the basis of this past season). Vince is more explosive but less consistent and had a down year last year (remember, Carter only scored 2 or 3 more points and wasn't considerably more efficient last year), so that takes away a chunk of his advantage.

Harry10 wrote:Manu makes the whole list a joke.... put Rip, Carter, Iverson, or Joe with Duncan, and you have a team that might be able to take the Jordan Bulls to 7 games.

also, Roy better than Vince??? i'm a big Roy fan, and he will probably be better than Vince in his prime, but as of now Roy is not better than Vince. Roy could have a break out year this year because of Odon, but still Vince is a guy who can carry a bad team with no help to 500.

Vince Carter had Richard Jefferson AND Jason Kidd on his team and they were around .500 every year. He can't carry a team with help or without it. I'd take most of the guys on that list over them because they actually help their team win.

Hmm, but they also didn't really have anything else, and the sets that the Nets were running weren't really ideal. Wing players of any caliber can only do SO much. Jordan "carried" his first few teams to 38 and 40 wins (30 in his injured season doesn't count), so there's much to be said about roster.

Yes, Kidd and RJ are more talent than Jordan had and so, the records are different and favor the Nets... whom you'll notice are 49, 41 and 34.

This past season, Kidd was traded and Krstic missed half the season, so it's tough to really impugn him for that. The year before, Krstic played only 26 games, Jefferson played 55 and the team was Carter and Kidd. Good as they both are, that's not enough. The year before that, they won the Atlantic division and lost in 5 to the eventual-champion Heat in the second round.

I'd say Vince has done about as well as he could have in New Jersey, given the circumstances he's experienced there.

As far as JJ is concerned...

He's a general specialist, can do a bit of everything. The 25 ppg season probably isn't the norm of what he can do and is marked by him having played only 57 games, so it's not a great sample, but he's a 21+ ppg scorer who's very efficient despite hovering around 80% jumpers in terms of shot selection. He's a nasty, lights-out shooter who's still pretty athletic and built pretty well. Tall, long guy. Unremarkable rebounder but that's neither here nor there because he's not a bad rebounder, just nothing special. He is, however, an underrated passer and quietly one of the best passing wings in the league. He's above Vince in this category, hovering somewhere around the Kobe/McGrady/Wade category in that regard, which is a giant complement, even if he's not quite as good as those guys (but similarly prolific).

He is also a very good defender, better than Carter even as a volume scorer, and he's a more consistent shooter.

So yeah, JJ is definitely one of the top wings in the league but by accomplishments and in terms of being set apart from others, he's not someone who can be said to be so firmly above Carter as to definitively rate him higher. That's why individual lists are cumbersome and too subjective; better are more group-oriented tierings. Who are the best ten players in league history? That's subjective, but you usually come up with 60-70% similar answers when you talk about it. You get Magic, Bird, Jordan, Wilt, Kareem and Russell for sure, and then you degenerate into bickering over Dr. J, Moses, West, Big O, blah blah.

Of more importance is that JJ has established himself as one of the 10 best in the league at his position (and arguably top-5), and that's a significant achievement. Where is he overall? Not top-10, certainly, but he's one of the best guys to have on your team at that position... especially since he's not staggeringly overpaid at $15M. Come the end of the 09/10 season, that's probably going to change, but that's later and this is now.

Harry10 wrote:Manu makes the whole list a joke.... put Rip, Carter, Iverson, or Joe with Duncan, and you have a team that might be able to take the Jordan Bulls to 7 games.

Are you really serious about that ?

Harry10 wrote:Manu makes the whole list a joke.... put Rip, Carter, Iverson, or Joe with Duncan, and you have a team that might be able to take the Jordan Bulls to 7 games.

also, Roy better than Vince??? i'm a big Roy fan, and he will probably be better than Vince in his prime, but as of now Roy is not better than Vince. Roy could have a break out year this year because of Odon, but still Vince is a guy who can carry a bad team with no help to 500.

Manu is phenomenal Harry. He can score around 20 points on significantly fewer shots than those guys you listed.

Manu is also mildly overrated for having played his entire career as basically a super-energetic 6th man in a really tight offensive system that's anchored by one of the 10 best players in NBA history.

He's got a beautiful skillset and his numbers are quite impressive but he'd look a lot different off of that team.

And if we're being picky, he's never scored 20 ppg even once in his career. Last year, he scored 19.5. And he shot percentages that were roughly comparable to what Vince, Rip and Joe have put up at various times in their careers.

Manu put up 46% FG, 40% 3P and 86% FT (better than Vince or AI at the line, sure). He drew a lot of FTAs, and that's why he was scoring so readily, but he also set his career-high in MPG at 31.1. He doesn't even much exceed that in the playoffs.

As a second or third option player, it's comparatively easy to look better than you are next to a 1st option player.

Manu doesnt get doubled so he shouldnt be ahead of joe and thats my stance on that. Joe was playing hurt during the 1st half of the season.

yall can say manu is better and thats fine but this year joe will average 23 points a game and by the 25th game of the year we will know who is better between joe and manu without question.

as for vince, i like him but did not pay ANY attention towards him so i will leave that to yall to discuss.

Manu does get doubled. And he would much more if Tim Duncan wasn't also on his team. Joe wouldn't see as many double teams on the Spurs ether.

Harry10 makes the most unintentionally funny comments on this board. He's totally serious, I think.

Hey Harry - have you learned what a 3rd option is yet?

tsherkin wrote:Manu is also mildly overrated for having played his entire career as basically a super-energetic 6th man in a really tight offensive system that's anchored by one of the 10 best players in NBA history.

He's got a beautiful skillset and his numbers are quite impressive but he'd look a lot different off of that team.

And if we're being picky, he's never scored 20 ppg even once in his career. Last year, he scored 19.5. And he shot percentages that were roughly comparable to what Vince, Rip and Joe have put up at various times in their careers.

Manu put up 46% FG, 40% 3P and 86% FT (better than Vince or AI at the line, sure). He drew a lot of FTAs, and that's why he was scoring so readily, but he also set his career-high in MPG at 31.1. He doesn't even much exceed that in the playoffs.

As a second or third option player, it's comparatively easy to look better than you are next to a 1st option player.

Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope.

Manu's career TS% is .590 and has a career high .612 TS%. Joe Johnson, Vince Carter, and Rip wishes they can come even close to being that efficient. Manu is the most efficient SG at scoring in the league.

Manu is just an energetic 6th man? Are you serious? Do you watch basketball besides the NBA? Manu can be considered as the best player in the world during Summers as the #1 option. He has won everywhere he's been. He's an Olympic Gold Medalist. He's an NBA champion. He's been a champion, a MVP, a finals MVP in Europe. He's had success everywhere he's been.

Yea, Manu plays alongside Duncan but as it has proven last year in the playoffs, as Manu goes, the Spurs go. If Manu stops, the Spurs stop.

Pop said if Manu isn't playing well, the Spurs might as pack up and go home in the playoffs. Manu is the only player on the Spurs team besides Duncan who can create his own offense.

Don't confuse Manu with someone like Barbosa.

Give me a proven winner over Vince, Hamilton, and Joe Johnson any day of the week.

If my team, the Lakers, can hand pick one, they'd pick Manu over all 3 of the SGs you mentioned without hesitation.

Yea, you can't win the NBA championship with Manu as the #1 option but you wouldn't go anywhere with Vince, Rip, and Joe either as the #1 option either.

Patterns wrote:Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope.

Manu's career TS% is .590 and has a career high .612 TS%. Joe Johnson, Vince Carter, and Rip wishes they can come even close to being that efficient. Manu is the most efficient SG at scoring in the league.

Manu is just an energetic 6th man? Are you serious? Do you watch basketball besides the NBA? Manu can be considered as the best player in the world during Summers as the #1 option. He has won everywhere he's been. He's an Olympic Gold Medalist. He's an NBA champion. He's been a champion, a MVP, a finals MVP in Europe. He's had success everywhere he's been.

Yea, Manu plays alongside Duncan but as it has proven last year in the playoffs, as Manu goes, the Spurs go. If Manu stops, the Spurs stop.

Pop said if Manu isn't playing well, the Spurs might as pack up and go home in the playoffs. Manu is the only player on the Spurs team besides Duncan who can create his own offense.

Don't confuse Manu with someone like Barbosa.

Give me a proven winner over Vince, Hamilton, and Joe Johnson any day of the week.

If my team, the Lakers, can hand pick one, they'd pick Manu over all 3 of the SGs you mentioned without hesitation.

Yea, you can't win the NBA championship with Manu as the #1 option but you wouldn't go anywhere with Vince, Rip, and Joe either as the #1 option either.

Manu's career TS% is .590 and has a career high .612 TS%..... Manu has those numbers because of Duncan (just like the Magic numbers because of Dwight), and Manu only has to face single coverage.

the best player in the world during Summers as the #1 option..... well there is a difference between the NBA game and international game.

Manu goes, the Spurs go........ i think is is very true, only because after the Barry trade. if Manu has an off game, they can't turn to Brent anymore.

Spurs team besides Duncan who can create his own offense..... i agree, Manu can create his own shot, but Carter, Joe, and Iverson can create their own shot against the double team. Manu that has yet to be seen.

Give me a proven winner over Vince, Hamilton, and Joe Johnson any day of the week..... doesn't Rip have a ring? didn't he lead his team in scoring? and Rip has never played with a talent like Duncan. is Manu a proven winner, yes he is, is Manu a #1, no he is not. look at KG, before last year he was not a proven winner, but he was a #1 before, put some talent around him, and you get a team that can take down Lakers, Spurs, Horents, Cavs, etc.

Yea, you can't win the NBA championship with Manu as the #1 option but you wouldn't go anywhere with Vince, Rip, and Joe either as the #1 option either....... yeah i agree, Duncan/Manu is a good team, but if you have Duncan/Vince, or Duncan/Iverson, or Duncan/Joe, then you will have a team that you throw into the greatest team of all time discussion, and a team that can go up against Shaq/Kobe

It'd be great if you put used quotes.

Why does Manu face single coverage? Makes no sense. Manu plays in the game when Duncan AND Parker are both out because the Spurs need his offense while the other 2 are out. So why would he only have single coverage?

Manu has shot a higher % than those 3 where ever hes gone.

Manu is a better shooter than Joe, Vince, and Rip. He's a better slasher, more clutch, and plays with more passion. That's why he shooters a higher TS%, not because he doesn't get double teamed.

As the Barry goes, the Spurs goes? No. Brent Barry played his hearts out against the Lakers and they lost every time. The Spurs won once against the Lakers because Manu had a huge game. Don't compare Manu to Barry.

i agree, Manu can create his own shot, but Carter, Joe, and Iverson can create their own shot against the double team. Manu that has yet to be seen.

Again, Manu does face double teams. Youtube any Manu video and notice how defenders around Manu playoff their men to give Manu more attention.

oesn't Rip have a ring? didn't he lead his team in scoring? and Rip has never played with a talent like Duncan. is Manu a proven winner, yes he is, is Manu a #1, no he is not. look at KG, before last year he was not a proven winner, but he was a #1 before, put some talent around him, and you get a team that can take down Lakers, Spurs, Horents, Cavs, etc.

You're telling me that Rip is a #1 option? He's barely the #1 option in Detroit and that's because Rasheed doesn't want to be the #1 option. Yea, Rip has a ring but that Detroit team was considered to be the only team in NBA history to win a championship without a superstar. You can't say that Rip was their #1 option just because he led them in scoring. Besides, Billups won the MVP.

yeah i agree, Duncan/Manu is a good team, but if you have Duncan/Vince, or Duncan/Iverson, or Duncan/Joe, then you will have a team that you throw into the greatest team of all time discussion, and a team that can go up against Shaq/Kobe

This is where you lose all credibility. Duncan/Vince or AI or Joe go up against Shaq/Kobe? Are you kidding me? Greatest teams of all time?

Tell me you're not putting Vince, Joe, and AI at Kobe's level. Duncan wasn't on Shaq's level when Shaq was in his prime either.


The fact is, Manu is efficient, clutch, can score on double/triple teams, a winner, and a champion.

VC, AI, JJ might have their numbers but until they can prove that they're winners at every league, team, I'll take Manu above them.

Another thing about Manu that aren't about numbers is his attitude towards the game. He makes no excuses. If he's hurt, he says it's a non factor and comes back next game playing harder. Manu can be a starter on almost every team but chooses to be the 6th man to help his team win. Ask VC, AI, Rip, and JJ to be the 6th man and see how they respond.

Manu is the prototypical champion/winner: work hard, play hard, humble, no excuses, no showing off, shows up when it comes, etc.

Patterns wrote:As the Barry goes, the Spurs goes? No. Brent Barry played his hearts out against the Lakers and they lost every time. The Spurs won once against the Lakers because Manu had a huge game. Don't compare Manu to Barry.

Barry was never a Spur when Shaq was a Laker. but Stephen Jackson was a Spur before Brent and Jackson got more minuties than Manu. the one year that Manu didn't have Barry or Jackson to help him, the Spurs lost in the playoffs. but again, i agree that Manu is very important to the Spurs, with no more Jackson or Barry to help take the load once in a while. Manu might do well this year, but that is only because i'm high on Roger Mason.

Patterns wrote:Again, Manu does face double teams. Youtube any Manu video and notice how defenders around Manu playoff their men to give Manu more attention..

so you are actually asserting that Duncan has no affect on Manu's game and numbers?

Patterns wrote:You're telling me that Rip is a #1 option? He's barely the #1 option in Detroit and that's because Rasheed doesn't want to be the #1 option. Yea, Rip has a ring but that Detroit team was considered to be the only team in NBA history to win a championship without a superstar. You can't say that Rip was their #1 option just because he led them in scoring. Besides, Billups won the MVP.

yes, i do believe that Rip is Detriots' #1. when i watch the Pistons, i see them working very hard to get Rips his shots, and Rip is the Piston's leading scorer. Pistons are a good team and are not just a one man team, if Rip goes down, then Billups and Sheed can step in, but regardless when Rip is in their, he is their first option.

your opinion on the Detriot championship team is just an opinion and can be discussed, all i know is that the Pistons nearly swept a Shaq/Kobe team with a very strong starting five. then soon after Larry Brown and Ben Wallace left.

Patterns wrote:Tell me you're not putting Vince, Joe, and AI at Kobe's level..

yes of course i am, that is the point to my whole thesis. Vince, Joe, and AI are closer to Kobe's level than Manu. we can all agree that Manu is not on the same level as Kobe, so if i assert that Joe, Vince, and AI are better than Manu, then of course i would proclaim that Vince, AI, and Joe are closer to Kobe's level than Manu. it is still consistant to everything i have been saying.

Patterns wrote:Duncan wasn't on Shaq's level when Shaq was in his prime either.

this is great, because i actually think that Duncan and Shaq hit their prime at the same time and we got to see alot of great basketball. this whole Shaq and Duncan thing is a whole different other discussion, and we can go into it later, but if you look at the 2003 and 2004 season, then Shaq and Duncan meet 12 times in the playoffs. in those 12 meetings Shaq averaged 23.91pts/3.58blk/2.83ast/14.41reb and Duncan averaged 24.33pts/1.50blk/4.08ast/12.00reb.... the numbers are close but we can have the Shaq/Duncan discussion later.

Patterns wrote:The fact is, Manu is efficient, clutch, can score on double/triple teams, a winner, and a champion..

that is fine, i know that Manu is efficient, but i will admit that Duncan and Parker have something to do with it, but it seems like you won't admit that Duncan and Parker have any effect on Manu's game and numbers

so you don't think Duncan has any effect on Manu. so are you saying that if you put Duncan with Joe, AI, or Carter, that their numbers and efficiency won't go up?

Patterns wrote:Manu is the prototypical champion/winner: work hard, play hard, humble, no excuses, no showing off, shows up when it comes, etc.

cool, nice talking points, you sound just like Palin ...... sorry i had to go their, it was just too easy