Is Joe Johnson a lead player?

evildallas · Post #1 » by **evildallas** » Wed Nov 5, 2008 10:28 am

An anonymous scout says no.

http://www.ajc.com/hawks/content/sports/hawks/stories/2008/11/04/hawks_joe_johnson.html

Teammates say the scout is an idiot.

What say you?

killbuckner · Post #2 » by **killbuckner** » Wed Nov 5, 2008 1:41 pm

He is a lead player for a decent team. On a championship caliber team he would be a #2 or #3 player.

LL Cool Scott · Post #3 » by **LL Cool Scott** » Wed Nov 5, 2008 2:38 pm

Have to agree with buckner. He's not going to lead a team to a championship, but he can get you into the playoffs. That's not a knock on Joe by any means, he's a really really good player and a good guy as well.

tontoz · Post #4 » by **tontoz** » Wed Nov 5, 2008 2:54 pm

I am sure they are quoting that same clown from SI that said JJ doesn't take the last second shot often enough.

As far as leading a team to a championship you could make that argument for almost everyone not named Shaq or Duncan.

LL Cool Scott · Post #5 » by **LL Cool Scott** » Wed Nov 5, 2008 3:28 pm

tontoz wrote:As far as leading a team to a championship you could make that argument for almost everyone not named Shaq or Duncan.

You make a good point. Franchise guys are few and far between. Which is why it's not a knock to acknowledge that JJ isn't a "franchise" player. I would just add a couple more guys to your list with the potential to lead a team to a championship:
Garnett
Yao Ming (if he can stay healthy)
Oden (if he can stay healthy)
Chris Paul
Steve Nash (window's almost closed on him, though)
Lebron
D-Wade (if he can stay healthy)
Dwight Howard

killbuckner · Post #6 » by **killbuckner** » Wed Nov 5, 2008 3:42 pm

I think of it in terms of this- if X is your best player can you compete for a championship? I don't think that the requirement is that they have to carry the team anywhere. If Joe Johnson is your best player you aren't a championship contender. I'd add more people even to LL's list, (Bosh, Deron, Kobe) but I just don't think Joe is at that level.

tontoz · Post #7 » by **tontoz** » Wed Nov 5, 2008 3:43 pm

LL Cool Scott wrote:
tontoz wrote:As far as leading a team to a championship you could make that argument for almost everyone not named Shaq or Duncan.

You make a good point. Franchise guys are few and far between. Which is why it's not a knock to acknowledge that JJ isn't a "franchise" player. I would just add a couple more guys to your list with the potential to lead a team to a championship:
Garnett
Yao Ming (if he can stay healthy)
Oden (if he can stay healthy)
Chris Paul
Steve Nash (window's almost closed on him, though)
Lebron
D-Wade (if he can stay healthy)
Dwight Howard

LOL Garnett couldn't get past the first round for years. He only made it because he got together with two other former number 1 options.

Yao lol. He hasn't done squat in the playoffs. I was watching him get clowned last night by Kendrick Perkins. He also had a very funny play where he caught the ball right under the basket and got his dunk blocked by the rim.

Oden hasn't done anything.

I like Nash a lot but he has been on very talented teams for years and never made it to the finals.

Howard can't make a shot outside of 5 feet.

LL Cool Scott · Post #8 » by **LL Cool Scott** » Wed Nov 5, 2008 4:36 pm

POTENTIAL to lead a team to a championship, tontoz, potential.

Reading - it's Fundamental!!!

JoshB914 · Post #9 » by **JoshB914** » Wed Nov 5, 2008 4:37 pm

Joe is a lead player, he can lead a team into the postseason and make a team much better all on his own. But can he lead a team to a championship? Absolutely not.

LL Cool Scott · Post #10 » by **LL Cool Scott** » Wed Nov 5, 2008 4:38 pm

killbuckner wrote:I think of it in terms of this- if X is your best player can you compete for a championship? I don't think that the requirement is that they have to carry the team anywhere. If Joe Johnson is your best player you aren't a championship contender. I'd add more people even to LL's list, (Bosh, Deron, Kobe) but I just don't think Joe is at that level.

I'm not quite sold on Bosh and Deron, but they keep getting better, so I may be wrong. Kobe is clearly a franchise player - but I didn't put him on my list because he is the anti-christ.

tontoz · Post #11 » by **tontoz** » Wed Nov 5, 2008 4:46 pm

LL Cool Scott wrote:POTENTIAL to lead a team to a championship, tontoz, potential.

Reading - it's Fundamental!!!

I could just as easily say JJ has the potential to lead a team to a championship if actual production doesn't matter.

conleyorbust · Post #12 » by **conleyorbust** » Wed Nov 5, 2008 5:04 pm

What does "lead a team to a championship" mean?

Does it mean be the best player on a championship team? If thats the case, sure, Joe could be. The difference in talent between Joe performing at his peek (not the first 4 months of last season but the last 2) and Deron performing at his peek isn't so high. The thing is, for any of those players LL mentioned to "lead his team to a championship," the team would have to be STACKED. If the Rockets won the championship this season, Yao would almost unequivocally be the worst player to ever lead his team to a title in the expansion era with the possible exceptions of Billups, Unseld, and Dumars (sorry Pistons and Wiz fans, "possible exception") same goes for a lot of those guys.

KG absolutely couldn't win the big one in anyone's mind... until he did. It is a stone cold fact that Dirk Nowitzki is not a closer and can't be "the main guy" on a championship team because his team lost 4-2 to a blazing hot Wade who undoubtedly had the refs on his side... unless Dirk wins one and then it'll be a non-issue.

Taking a guy out of context and saying that "he can't be the main man on a chip team" is ridiculous. tontoz is completely right too, until it happens you can say it about anyone - put Joe on the Cs last season in place of PP in the playoffs, Joe could certainly win the Finals MVP. He came up bigger in the Celtics series than Pierce did in the finals. Context matters. Joe couldn't lead this team, as currently constructed with the players' skill levels where they are now, to a title, I'll agree with that.

JoshB914 · Post #13 » by **JoshB914** » Wed Nov 5, 2008 5:36 pm

Yes. To me it means be the best player on a team that wins a title. There are a select few guys in the league that can do that, Joe is not one of them.

LL Cool Scott · Post #14 » by **LL Cool Scott** » Wed Nov 5, 2008 5:49 pm

tontoz wrote:I could just as easily say JJ has the potential to lead a team to a championship if actual production doesn't matter.

True, but do you really believe that JJ has that kind of superstar potential? (Not speaking as a Hawks fan, but as an objective observer)

tontoz · Post #15 » by **tontoz** » Wed Nov 5, 2008 5:49 pm

JoshB914 wrote:Yes. To me it means be the best player on a team that wins a title. There are a select few guys in the league that can do that, Joe is not one of them.

So who is? Other than Shaq and Duncan nobody else has proven themselves capable of it. I can give the benefit of the doubt to Lebron, Wade, Kobe and Paul. Other than those guys you can easily make that argument against anyone in the NBA.

It is just a joke the lengths some people will go to in order to criticize JJ, even on a Hawks board. I don't see you or LL giving JJ any credit for how he has started the season but you are quick to jump on the "JJ can't lead a team to a championship" bandwagon and don't even have JJ listed among you top 10 favorite Hawks.

That is just bizarre.

JJ is a two time All-Star. he is the first Hawk since Nique to win NBA Player of the Month in March. He followed it up by winning the Player of the Week in the east during the first week in April. Then he put on a show against Boston. Now he has gotten off to a hot start.

But i am sure you guys will be quick to dog him for an off game. I am sure you can't wait to go back to calling him a primma donna with an attitude problem.

tontoz · Post #16 » by **tontoz** » Wed Nov 5, 2008 5:51 pm

LL Cool Scott wrote:
tontoz wrote:I could just as easily say JJ has the potential to lead a team to a championship if actual production doesn't matter.

True, but do you really believe that JJ has that kind of superstar potential?

Do i think he is on the same level as Lebron, Kobe, or Wade or Paul? No. As far as those other guys absolutely.

LL Cool Scott · Post #17 » by **LL Cool Scott** » Wed Nov 5, 2008 5:59 pm

Settle down. In the very first post on this thing I said that Joe is a "really really good player and a good guy as well." (again - reading, it's fundamental...)

I think he's a TREMENDOUS player, the best player we've had since Dominique. And I think he's maybe an even better person. But that doesn't make him one of my all time favorite players in the franchise's history. I prefaced that whole post by saying those were my PERSONAL FAVORITE players, not who I thought were the BEST players. I like fiery, passionate dudes who make me want to punch a hole in the wall when I watch them play (Josh Smith, 'Sheed), I like dudes who make me laugh (Snoop Graham, Zaza), and that mid-80's team made me fall in love with the NBA (Nique, Spud, Doc, John Battle).

Are your feelings still hurt now?

JoshB914 · Post #18 » by **JoshB914** » Wed Nov 5, 2008 6:00 pm

tontoz wrote:
JoshB914 wrote:Yes. To me it means be the best player on a team that wins a title. There are a select few guys in the league that can do that, Joe is not one of them.

So who is? Other than Shaq and Duncan nobody else has proven themselves capable of it. I can give the benefit of the doubt to Lebron, Wade, Kobe and Paul. Other than those guys you can easily make that argument against anyone in the NBA.

It is just a joke the lengths some people will go to in order to criticize JJ, even on a Hawks board. I don't see you or LL giving JJ any credit for how he has started the season but you are quick to jump on the "JJ can't lead a team to a championship" bandwagon and don't even have JJ listed among you top 10 favorite Hawks.

That is just bizarre.

JJ is a two time All-Star. he is the first Hawk since Nique to win NBA Player of the Month in March. He followed it up by winning the Player of the Week in the east during the first week in April. Then he put on a show against Boston. Now he has gotten off to a hot start.

But i am sure you guys will be quick to dog him for an off game. I am sure you can't wait to go back to calling him a primma donna with an attitude problem.

1) Actually I have been extremely happy with JJ's performance this year so far and have said so on this board. He has clearly turned it around since the Bibby trade.

2) Who cares if he isn't in my top 10 favorite Hawks players? I don't even see what that has to do with anything.

3) The list of guys who can lead their team to a title is a very select few. I don't see how you can take that as not giving JJ his due. He's obviously a hell of a player.

4) I criticized JJ last season because he was playing poorly for over half of the season and no one would say anything (instead choosing to blame Woody, Zaza and AJ). I'm not going to go after him when he has one bad game as you say.

JoshB914 · Post #19 » by **JoshB914** » Wed Nov 5, 2008 6:03 pm

LL Cool Scott wrote:Settle down. In the very first post on this thing I said that Joe is a "really really good player and a good guy as well." (again - reading, it's fundamental...)

I think he's a TREMENDOUS player, the best player we've had since Dominique. And I think he's maybe an even better person. But that doesn't make him one of my all time favorite players in the franchise's history. I prefaced that whole post by saying those were my PERSONAL FAVORITE players, not who I thought were the BEST players. I like fiery, passionate dudes who make me want to punch a hole in the wall when I watch them play (Josh Smith, 'Sheed), I like dudes who make me laugh (Snoop Graham, Zaza), and that mid-80's team made me fall in love with the NBA (Nique, Spud, Doc, John Battle).

Are your feelings still hurt now?

+1.

tontoz · Post #20 » by **tontoz** » Wed Nov 5, 2008 6:08 pm

JoshB914 wrote:
tontoz wrote:
JoshB914 wrote:Yes. To me it means be the best player on a team that wins a title. There are a select few guys in the league that can do that, Joe is not one of them.

So who is? Other than Shaq and Duncan nobody else has proven themselves capable of it. I can give the benefit of the doubt to Lebron, Wade, Kobe and Paul. Other than those guys you can easily make that argument against anyone in the NBA.

It is just a joke the lengths some people will go to in order to criticize JJ, even on a Hawks board. I don't see you or LL giving JJ any credit for how he has started the season but you are quick to jump on the "JJ can't lead a team to a championship" bandwagon and don't even have JJ listed among you top 10 favorite Hawks.

That is just bizarre.

JJ is a two time All-Star. he is the first Hawk since Nique to win NBA Player of the Month in March. He followed it up by winning the Player of the Week in the east during the first week in April. Then he put on a show against Boston. Now he has gotten off to a hot start.

But i am sure you guys will be quick to dog him for an off game. I am sure you can't wait to go back to calling him a primma donna with an attitude problem.

1) Actually I have been extremely happy with JJ's performance this year so far and have said so on this board. He has clearly turned it around since the Bibby trade.

2) Who cares if he isn't in my top 10 favorite Hawks players? I don't even see what that has to do with anything.

3) The list of guys who can lead their team to a title is a very select few. I don't see how you can take that as not giving JJ his due. He's obviously a hell of a player.

4) I criticized JJ last season because he was playing poorly for over half of the season and no one would say anything (instead choosing to blame Woody, Zaza and AJ). I'm not going to go after him when he has one bad game as you say.

Please. You have been dogging JJ long before last season. And your threads calling him out and saying he was the cause of the Hawks problems were way beyond criticizing someone for poor play.

It isn't JJ's fault that our former GM was a moron. It also isn't JJ's fault that he had a season ending injury that he was OBVIOUSLY struggling to come back from.