Could Clippers Trade Camby At Deadline?

[tontoz]

Second, you know from the other thread that my point was not that the Hawks would TRADE Childress, but that they would be within their rights to WITHDRAW their qualifying offer (since Oct 1 actually) and renounce him, making him AVAILABLE to the market... and thus, if the Clips happened to be the team most willing and able to sign him FOR 09-10, there is no language in the CBA (insofar as anyone has discovered yet) that says that couldn't happen.

The point on both fronts being... it is disingenuous for you to respond as if I was saying that a team could trade their free agents. My response asked you for a source something different than that, and for now anyhow, I'm left to believe that you have no source.

Lest I be misunderstood (again), the Speedy thing is what would screw up acquiring Camby. Period. Has nothing to do with Chilz availability or unavailability.

You still don't get it. Let's try and simplify this.

Why can't a player that will be a free agent this summer sign a contract on July 2?

Answer: Because the salary cap won't be set until July 8th.


Since you are looking to sign Childress to a contract for the 09/10 season you have to wait until the salary cap for that season is set.

Free agents become free on July 1, but the salary cap is not set until the audit report is completed later in the month. Teams and players must wait for the salary cap to be set before trades and most free agent signings can commence. Teams may negotiate with free agents beginning July 1, but they have to wait until the moratorium ends before signing a contract. The dates for the July Moratorium are as follows:

Season July Moratorium Players may be signed beginning
2005-06 July 1, 2005 through August 1, 2005* August 2, 2005
2006-07 July 1, 2006 through July 11, 2006 July 12, 2006
2007-08 July 1, 2007 through July 10, 2007 July 11, 2007
2008-09 July 1, 2008 through July 8, 2008 July 9, 2008
2009-10 July 1, 2009 through July 7, 2009 July 8, 2009
2010-11 July 1, 2010 through July 7, 2010 July 8, 2010
2011-12 July 1, 2011 through July 7, 2011 July 8, 2011

* Additional time was required in 2005 for the CBA to be agreed upon, finalized, ratified and distributed.

[killbuckner]

sturt- you know that a player with a valid overseas contract isn't allowed to sign a NBA contract right?

[tontoz]

Second, you know from the other thread that my point was not that the Hawks would TRADE Childress, but that they would be within their rights to WITHDRAW their qualifying offer (since Oct 1 actually) and renounce him, making him AVAILABLE to the market... and thus, if the Clips happened to be the team most willing and able to sign him FOR 09-10,

That QO was for the 08-09 season. They can't withdraw their QO for the 09-10 season because they haven't offered it yet.

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

Sturt- here is the statement I made.

deshaun- for childress to be traded it would require a S&T. And that can't occur while he is under contract to another team overseas.

You asked for a source on this so I tried to explain it more fully to you because you have made it clear you don't have a good grasp on even basic CBA issues. I don't know why you think that the poster in this thread would have been referencing your other convoluted circumvention of the cap and the statement I made was perfectly straightforward and correct. Honestly I thought you had dropped the ridiculousness about the renouncing childress so he could sign an illegal contract thing after you got more information so I was just responding to the facts of this thread.

1. Infreakincredible. I acknowledge one point where I read over top of something, and suddenly I don't even have "a good grasp on even basic CBA issues."

*rolls eyes*

I, meanwhile, have been awaiting any proof that you've ever read the first line of the actual CBA. Oh, wait... you DID read something because, I pasted it there for you to read.

*rolls eyes*

2. I asked for a source. Deshaun did not ask for a source. If you were responding to him, that's between the two of you. If you were responding to me, it was self-evident that there was no confusion about the inability to trade UFAs or RFAs.

That was disingenuous.

3. To the comment, "sturt- you know that a player with a valid overseas contract isn't allowed to sign a NBA contract right?"

I'm simply stunned and amazed at your audacity.

So, I take it that you've looked over the CBA, or more likely the Coon FAQ, and can cite a source for this... well, I asked for it before, and I'm still waiting.

*looks at watch*

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

Second, you know from the other thread that my point was not that the Hawks would TRADE Childress, but that they would be within their rights to WITHDRAW their qualifying offer (since Oct 1 actually) and renounce him, making him AVAILABLE to the market... and thus, if the Clips happened to be the team most willing and able to sign him FOR 09-10, there is no language in the CBA (insofar as anyone has discovered yet) that says that couldn't happen.

The point on both fronts being... it is disingenuous for you to respond as if I was saying that a team could trade their free agents. My response asked you for a source something different than that, and for now anyhow, I'm left to believe that you have no source.

Lest I be misunderstood (again), the Speedy thing is what would screw up acquiring Camby. Period. Has nothing to do with Chilz availability or unavailability.

You still don't get it. Let's try and simplify this.

Why can't a player that will be a free agent this summer sign a contract on July 2?

Stop right there, and check your facts, tontoz.

Q: When "will" Chilz become a free agent???

A: He ALREADY IS ONE... and WILL CONTINUE TO BE until either the Hawks decide to withraw their QO, or do not make a QO during the next period, or do a sign-and-trade.

Hope you "get that."

Since you are looking to sign Childress to a contract for the 09/10 season you have to wait until the salary cap for that season is set.

Two things:

First, you will not find any reference anywhere to back up that statement.

And second, the Hawks can sign Chilz whenver they want (assuming Chilz is compliant, and assuming there isn't some stipulation in his contract with Olympiacos that restricts him to actually writing his signature until a certain date... and of course, that's entirely possible, but the point is that there is no NBA-mandated restriction on the Hawks).

I believe, though, you're arguing that another team could not sign Chilz for the 09-10 season until the salary cap for 09-10 is set. Ordinarily that would be the case, but again, this is where Chilz presents a novel, unique situation that is not explicitly addressed by the current CBA.

You can sit there and pontificate all you want, but the truth of the matter is that it's open to interpretation. Another person could argue that once the cap is set, it is up to the other team to get under the cap, but that until the 08-09 season closes, there is an opportunity for that team to acquire Chilz without regard to a cap... it's simply not something that's specified in the contract, and until then, is open to interpretation.

[tontoz]

Stop right there, and check your facts, tontoz.

Q: When "will" Chilz become a free agent???

A: He ALREADY IS ONE... and WILL CONTINUE TO BE until either the Hawks decide to withraw their QO, or do not make a QO during the next period, or do a sign-and-trade.

Hope you "get that."

The QO is for THIS SEASON. If they withdraw the QO then Childress could certainly be signed for this season. But you are talking about signing him for NEXT SEASON. The QO for the 09-10 season hasn't been offered so it can't be withdrawn.

First, you will not find any reference anywhere to back up that statement.

I already did.

And second, the Hawks can sign Chilz whenver they want.

Because they have his Bird rights. Other teams don't.

I believe, though, you're arguing that another team could not sign Chilz for the 09-10 season until the salary cap for 09-10 is set.

Correct.

Ordinarily that would be the case, but again, this is where Chilz presents a novel, unique situation that is not explicitly addressed by the current CBA.

That is just you talking. It isn't different just because you say so. If Childress is trying to sign a contract for the 09/10 season with another team then that puts him in the same situation as Marvin and all the other upcoming free agents. It also puts him in the same boat (since the Hawks would be renouncing his rights) as all other foreign players that want to play in the NBA in the 09/10 season.

Marvin will be a free agent, just like Childress, on July 1. However he can't be signed, and neither can Childress, until July 8 when the cap is set.

Another person could argue that once the cap is set, it is up to the other team to get under the cap, but that until the 08-09 season closes, there is an opportunity for that team to acquire Chilz without regard to a cap

[killbuckner]

sturt- I repeat the question. Are you aware that a player with a valid overseas contract is not allowed to sign a NBA contract? Is this the point which you are disputing? really?

[tontoz]

sturt- I repeat the question. Are you aware that a player with a valid overseas contract is not allowed to sign a NBA contract? Is this the point which you are disputing? really?

He wants to see your source apparently. The fact that it has never happened and flies in the face of common sense isn't good enough.

[killbuckner]

I know the source. I am just asking if this is really the issue he is disputing before I take the time to track down the details. Because this is just one of those basic issues that I would feel rather patronizing to belabor for anyone else. I would just be astounded if he really thought that players with valid overseas contracts could be signed by nba teams.

[tontoz]

I know the source. I am just asking if this is really the issue he is disputing. Because this is just one of those basic issues that I would feel rather patronizing to belabor for anyone else.

At this point i think it is clear that sturt is a special case. No need to feel bad about pointing out the obvious considering the lengths he has gone to defend this nutty trade scenario.

[killbuckner]

Sturt- in May of 1990 the NBA and Fiba signed an agreement to mutually honor each other's contracts. Thats why NBA players cannot go to Europe and play unless they secure a buyout from their NBA contracts. (even if that buyout is for 0 dollars) If AK wants to go back and play in Russia he would need the Jazz to let him out of his contract in order to do so. Same with Marbury- he can't play in Italy unless the knicks let him out of his deal. Likewise it is not allowed for an NBA team to sign a player who has a valid overseas contract.

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

Stop right there, and check your facts, tontoz.

Q: When "will" Chilz become a free agent???

A: He ALREADY IS ONE... and WILL CONTINUE TO BE until either the Hawks decide to withraw their QO, or do not make a QO during the next period, or do a sign-and-trade.

Hope you "get that."

The QO is for THIS SEASON.

Correct.

If they withdraw the QO then Childress could certainly be signed for this season.

Correct.

But you are talking about signing him for NEXT SEASON.

Correct, but more precisely, I'm talking about him signing a contract NOW that TAKES EFFECT NEXT season, only after he has satisfied his obligation to Olympiacos.

The QO for the 09-10 season hasn't been offered so it can't be withdrawn.

Correct, but irrelevant. See previous statement.

First, you will not find any reference anywhere to back up that statement.

I already did.

I missed that... where did you find that a an RFA who is currently under contract to a non-NBA league cannot sign a contract for the next season, again assuming that his non-NBA contract contains provisions that allow him to play elsewhere the following season?

Ordinarily that would be the case, but again, this is where Chilz presents a novel, unique situation that is not explicitly addressed by the current CBA.

That is just you talking. It isn't different just because you say so.

Ummm... I believe that's my line.

You're talking to the person asking YOU to produce a source because YOU are the one saying that YOUR interpretation is correct. I, on the other hand, have merely been maintaining that this possibility is there because THERE IS NO EXPLICIT LANGUAGE in the collective bargaining agreement to the contrary.

If Childress is trying to sign a contract for the 09/10 season with another team then that puts him in the same situation as Marvin and all the other upcoming free agents.

Where, oh where do you come up with this stuff? (Note to self... why do I even bother asking that question?)

Marvin will not be an RFA until the end of the season. If Chilz doesn't sign something before then, only in that case are you clearly correct in this statement. UNTIL THEN, there is NOTHING in the CBA that says Chilz cannot sign an 09-10 NBA contract now instead of later.

And to Buckner...

Sturt- in May of 1990 the NBA and Fiba signed an agreement to mutually honor each other's contracts. Thats why NBA players cannot go back over to Europe and play unless they secure a buyout from their NBA contracts. (even if that buyout is for 0 dollars) If AK wants to go back and play in Russia he would need the Jazz to let him out of his contract in order to do so. Likewise it is not allowed for an NBA team to sign a player who has a valid overseas contract.

Disingenuous again? Hopefully not. Hopefully, this time, just a misunderstanding on your part.

The agreement you cite is relevant ONLY if I were proposing that Chilz leave Greece early. I am not. I haven't been. For about the THIRD time(?), the original discussion was predicated on the understanding that reports were correct that Chilz' contract with Olympiacos GIVES HIM THE RIGHT to leave in-between seasons.

IF... IF... Chilz' contract restricts him from EVEN SIGNING an agreement for his FUTURE services until after the season, then IT IS HIS CONTRACT, NOT THE NBA/FIBA AGREEMENT that would prevent him from doing that.

It may, but that's open to conjecture... conject at your pleasure, but as someone who has negotiated federal contracts as small as five figures and as large as seven figures, there's a difference between conjecture and explicit contract language.

The same can be said for the continuing conjecture that Chilz is disallowed from signing an 09-10 contract that would commit his services to an NBA team beginning on July 1 (the contractual beginning of a new season) right now on November 30, 2008.

Done here. Cerebral wall-beating completed.

[tontoz]

Marvin will not be an RFA until the end of the season. If Chilz doesn't sign something before then, only in that case are you clearly correct in this statement. UNTIL THEN, there is NOTHING in the CBA that says Chilz cannot sign an 09-10 NBA contract now instead of later.

There absolutely is, you are just choosing to ignore it. Since Childress' rights don't come into play (since the Hawks would withdraw the QO) he is in the exact same boat as any other foreign player coming over. He has to wait until the cap is set for the 09/10 season before he signs a contract for that season.

Do you have any examples of foreign players signing contracts for an upcoming season before the cap is set? I didn't think so.

Bibby and Marvin become free agents on july 1 but can't sign contracts on that day because the cap isn't set. They can't sign a contract for the 09/10 season until the cap is set and neither can Childress.

It couldn't be any more clear. But then again anyone who says something like this

but that until the 08-09 season closes, there is an opportunity for that team to acquire Chilz without regard to a cap

clearly doesn't understand the most basic concepts about the salary cap.

There are no circumstances where a team can aquire a player in the middle of the season (or any other time) without regards to the cap. That is just plain dumb.

[killbuckner]

sturt- if Childress does opt out of his contract THEN he would be allowed to sign a NBA contract. He is not allowed to sign a NBA contract while he has a valid contract to another team. He can't sign a NBA contract because at some point he might be eligible to do so. If a player is under contract to an overseas team he is prohibited from signing a NBA contract.

[killbuckner]

god I can't believe I actually bothered to look this up for you. Here you go sturt- here is the CBA snippet that apparently doesn't exist in your copy for some reason.

(e) No Futures Contracts. Subject to Section 5(e)(4) below, but notwithstanding any other provision in this Agreement:

(1) Every Player Contract must cover at least the then-current Season (or the upcoming Season in the case of a Contract entered into from July 1 through the day prior to the first day of the Season).

[tontoz]

god I can't believe I actually bothered to look this up for you. Here you go sturt- here is the CBA snippet that doesn't exist in your copy for some reason.

(e) No Futures Contracts. Subject to Section 5(e)(4) below, but notwithstanding any other provision in this Agreement:

(1) Every Player Contract must cover at least the then-current Season (or the upcoming Season in the case of a Contract entered into from July 1 through the day prior to the first day of the Season).

[DeShaunRed]

Information overload guys. I'm just a fan but it's good to see you guys exchanging infos all over the place. After all, the Chill trade is just a proposal without any regard to a player's rights or whatsoever.

I just thought I can throw something to talk about.

^^ my mom is from Cebu, i have one uncle that lives near ayala, and another uncle that lives in mactan near hudson bay.

^^
Second... small world... my wife is a Filipina from Cebu. I got to visit there for about 3 weeks in 2005, and hope to return relatively soon. Are you Filipino or an American living there?

Wow. Such a small world indeed. Anyway, I live here (Cebu). Been a Hawks fan since 2001 and I still have not found any guy other than me that digs the Hawks here.

The Ayala mall is where I hang out but Hudson bay is like, a bit far away from my place.

[Harry10]

^ a Hawks fan in Cebu????

everybody in PH are such Kobe fans it is sick

i go back when ever i can save up 1500 for a ticket

SM and ayala are cool, Hudson bay is a good place to go if you want to go to the beach and not spend alot of money.

i'm actually going back to the PH for christmas, it sucks, because the Hawks and Falcons are finally winning, and i won't be able to watch any games while i'm over there.

are siniguelas in season in december? those are my fav.

i have some friends in marie louisa who play ball everyday, the court sucks, but the goals are pretty decent, you should check it out, they have pick up games at 6, and everybody is welcome.

not really a small world, their are not that many Hawks fans in Cebu..... bound to run into each other sooner or later.

[DeShaunRed]

^ a Hawks fan in Cebu????

everybody in PH are such Kobe fans it is sick

i go back when ever i can save up 1500 for a ticket

SM and ayala are cool, Hudson bay is a good place to go if you want to go to the beach and not spend alot of money.

i'm actually going back to the PH for christmas, it sucks, because the Hawks and Falcons are finally winning, and i won't be able to watch any games while i'm over there.

are siniguelas in season in december? those are my fav.

i have some friends in marie louisa who play ball everyday, the court sucks, but the goals are pretty decent, you should check it out, they have pick up games at 6, and everybody is welcome.

not really a small world, their are not that many Hawks fans in Cebu..... bound to run into each other sooner or later.

Never been a fan of superstar-caliber players because (I think) it's TOO common. They have them Wade, Lebron, Kobe, TMac and Shaq jerseys all over the place.

OH yeah, sineguelas in December. Buzz me when you get here. Hope you don't mind a few rounds of beer while we talk about how "awesome" the Hawks are.

Anyway... back to the topic:

I kind of wish we have the pieces for an attempt to lure Camby here. Maybe throw in two first round draft picks plus Zaza instead? Like how the Hawks manage to get Joe Johnson for 2 firsts and Diaw back in 05.

But then again, it's not like Camby has the desire to play for the Hawks. Although it's a change of scenery. You know how "Leastern Conference" sounds like.

[HoopsGuru25]

I've never been a fan of Camby outside of fantasy basketball. The Denver board has been complaining about his overrated D for years and now the numbers finally show it. How did the Clippers get worse on defense by adding one of the best interior defenders in the NBA? Obviously I'd take him in a salary dump but I'm not sure I'd give up any draft picks considering he's over 4 years older than any one else on our team. The guy I thought the Hawks should have went after was Nene considering how low his value was.