Woody quote

[tontoz]

“Josh is five years in the league now, man,” Woodson said after Smith’s 5-for-19 shooting effort in the loss to the Rockets. “And it comes down to time, score and situation. That’s the bottom line. We’re not telling him he can’t shoot 3-pointers but if you miss four or five jump shots, something has to go off in his head that says, ‘I have to do something else.’ “

http://www.ajc.com/hawks/content/sports ... ineup.html

Can it be any more clear that Woody is clueless? He is letting Smith decide whether or not he should shoot 3s. Smith has clearly shown poor judgement in this area. It isn't even debatable yet Woodson isn't telling him to stop shooting 3s.

D U M B

[evildallas]

Normally, I am the first person to bash Woodson, but not this time. Actually I agree with Woodson statement. I don't think you want to overly restrict a star player. If I was Josh Smith I would appreciate that I'm given the responsibility to play my game and adjust as necessary. It seems reasonable for Woodson to expect Josh to realize what is going on and adjust as necessary. If he doesn't play with his head then he can expect more stretches like the end of the San Antonio game with Josh on the bench. Riding the pine when hurting the team with offensive choices is probably a more effective message than Woodson telling Josh to not shoot from outside.

[fo_o_fo_404]

“Josh is five years in the league now, man,” Woodson said after Smith’s 5-for-19 shooting effort in the loss to the Rockets. “And it comes down to time, score and situation. That’s the bottom line. We’re not telling him he can’t shoot 3-pointers but if you miss four or five jump shots, something has to go off in his head that says, ‘I have to do something else.’ “

http://www.ajc.com/hawks/content/sports ... ineup.html

Can it be any more clear that Woody is clueless? He is letting Smith decide whether or not he should shoot 3s. Smith has clearly shown poor judgement in this area. It isn't even debatable yet Woodson isn't telling him to stop shooting 3s.

D U M B

Yeah...that's pretty f'n dumb there.

Any knowledgeable coaching (i.e. Poppovich, Phil Jackson, Byron Scott, etc) would tell Smoove, "No shots beyond 18 feet...unless it's absolutely warranted and you are completely wide open. Anymore of those wild shots...and I'm benching your ass....period!"

Woody will get fired soon if he continue this path of clueless coaching.

[fo_o_fo_404]

Normally, I am the first person to bash Woodson, but not this time. Actually I agree with Woodson statement. I don't think you want to overly restrict a star player. If I was Josh Smith I would appreciate that I'm given the responsibility to play my game and adjust as necessary. It seems reasonable for Woodson to expect Josh to realize what is going on and adjust as necessary. If he doesn't play with his head then he can expect more stretches like the end of the San Antonio game with Josh on the bench. Riding the pine when hurting the team with offensive choices is probably a more effective message than Woodson telling Josh to not shoot from outside.

Yeah, but Smoove is not playing smart basketball. So, even though he may be getting star player $$$, his immaturity on the court still warrants a coach to put his foot down and say...."this is how I want my offense runned. Anything outside of that....there's the pine!"

Maybe some tough love again from Woody would wake him up from his "I'm Dirk...and I can jack up 3's at will" "Illusion of grandeur!"

His game should be 18 feet and in....

[JoshB914]

I don't understand the freaking out after a couple of bad games from Josh. This is just the type of player he is, he's going to have nights where he is gone on offense. It's just time to except what he is and realize that the defensive services he provides totally offset the occasional bad shooting game. If he continues to play like the last couple of games, then we'll have a problem. But we've seen Josh go through a couple of games like this a million times before, and he has returned to form afterwards.

Everyone wants Woody to coach like high school or college and tell players what they can or can't do. These guys are grown men, it is just as much Josh's responsibility to fit in with the offensive low as it is Woody's.

The funny thing is if there was ever a coach that puts too many constraints on his players, it's Woody.

[tontoz]

I don't understand the freaking out after a couple of bad games from Josh.

It is not a question of bad games from Smith. The problem is that he thinks he is Rashard Lewis when he is much closer to Ben Wallace. He can't shoot but he thinks he can.

Everyone wants Woody to coach like high school or college and tell players what they can or can't do.

His job is to tell everyone what to do, whether they like it or not. If everyone is trying to do their own thing you don't have a team, you have the Hawks.

[NDaATL]

Everyone wants Woody to coach like high school or college and tell players what they can or can't do. These guys are grown men, it is just as much Josh's responsibility to fit in with the offensive low as it is Woody's.

That is the definition of coaching. You put your players in the best position to succeed and call them out when they need to be called out. A good COACH doesn't let a player incessantly do something that causes them to fail again and again..

[JoshB914]

Woody can't micro-manage to the point where he's demanding Josh not shoot at all. Like evil said, if Josh keeps taking dumb shots he'll just bench him.

[killbuckner]

you have to be kidding me! You think Josh would respond to be told he is not allowed to ever take 3 pointers under any circumstances? You tell him not to unless its the only available option. That he is the worst shooter in the league taking 3 pointers. Its a players league- the coaches can only do so much. Woodson can tell Smith that he is taking too many 3 pointers. That he shoudl be driving from that spot and using the space available. I simply don't think that coaches have any ability to forbid a player from doing something when they need that player on the court to win games. As long as you say that you are OK with it if Smith gets benched when he takes a bad 3 then OK- but I just think that in the end the Hawks are simply a better team with him playng even with his terrible decisionmaking.

[D21]

Sure Woody would not need him to win games, it could be easier to tell not to do something at all.
But like Evildallas, I don't think Woody has to not allow him to shoot 3s. Smith has to be smarter by the coach and also by himself if he wants to improve the best way. He has to understand himself that he made stupid choices, not playing with only the frustration of a coach order, because I am sure Smith would be frustrated if Woodson tells him that.
Fo_o_fo_404, you said other coaches would tell him "...unless it's absolutely warranted and you are completely wide open...", and that's exactly my point of view, and it doesn't mean "you're not allowed to shoot". I don't want to see Woody telling him "18ft or nothing".
Now, when you see him losing ball while dribbling, and continuing to do that, I can understand you want to tell him "to be in the 18ft".

[tontoz]

you have to be kidding me! You think Josh would respond to be told he is not allowed to ever take 3 pointers under any circumstances? Its a players league- the coaches can only do so much. Woodson can tell Smith that he is taking too many 3 pointers. That he shoudl be driving from that spot and using the space available. I simply don't think that coaches have any ability to forbid a player from doing something when they need that player on the court to win games.

what a joke. Everyone on this board can see that Smith has no business taking 3s. Everyone on this board can see that Smith has poor judgement on offense. Yet Woody isn't even TRYING to address it and you continue to excuse it.

In your dream world the coach has no responsibilities at all. it is just the players out there playing a pickup game. In reality the coach does have some responsibilities. if a guy keeps chucking 3s that he has shown he can't make it is the coaches responsibility to tell him to stop. PERIOD. Smith needs to show that he can make 15-18 footers before he shoots 3s. It isn't a hard concept to grasp. If he shows that he can make midrange shots at a decent clip then he can step further out.

But Woody doesn't bother trying. What a chump. Why does he even have a job if he isn't going to tell the players what to do? Might as well stay home with the rest of the coaching staff and let the players do their own thing.

How do you know Smith won't stop shooting 3s if he is told to do so? You don't know unless Woody actually tries to do it which he clearly isn't willing to do.

You are even worse than the people who blame every loss on Woodson. You never hold him responsible for anything. In your world Woodson has no more influence on the game than Harry the Hawk.

[killbuckner]

I do think in the NBA the coaches get far too much credit and far too much blame- and thats because I have spent a lot of time coaching. I know that I can prep my guys before they step on the field but after that I have very limited influence. I just know the frustration of telling someone "I want you to catch the ball here and do X with it. And they'll do X in practice. BUt in the games they will fall back to their previous bad habits and go back to doing Y because thats what their instinct tells them to do. And I have the ability to bench people- I can't even imagine coaching in a situation where I know that the players would be sided with before the coach would.In the world of 5 year guaranteed contracts the only stick the coach can use is to bench a player, but for someone like Josh Smith I just don't see what a coach can do other than tell them what you would want them to do instead and keep reinforcing that. Do you really think that Josh Smith thinks the coaches want him taking as many 3's as he does?

You want proof about how little coaches matter in the NBA? In the finals Doc rivers "outcoached" Phil Jackson. Its just about the players and when you have players that make good decisions you look smart- when you ahve players that make bad decisions you look dumb. And no I am not going to blame Woodson for Josh Smith taking dumb shots any more than I'll blame Woodson for Flip Murray taking dumb shots. If there is anything that I would think people could admit was on the players and not the coach it would be taking dumb shots.

[tontoz]

I do think in the NBA the coaches get far too much credit and far too much blame- and thats because I have spent a lot of time coaching. I know that I can prep my guys before they step on the field but after that I have very limited influence. I just know the frustration of telling someone "I want you to catch the ball here and do X with it. And they'll do X in practice. BUt in the games they will fall back to their previous bad habits and go back to doing Y because thats what their instinct tells them to do. And I have the ability to bench people- I can't even imagine coaching in a situation where I know that the players would be sided with before the coach would.In the world of 5 year guaranteed contracts the only stick the coach can use is to bench a player, but for someone like Josh Smith I just don't see what a coach can do other than tell them what you would want them to do instead and keep reinforcing that. Do you really think that Josh Smith thinks the coaches want him taking as many 3's as he does?

You want proof about how little coaches matter in the NBA? In the finals Doc rivers "outcoached" Phil Jackson. Its just about the players and when you have players that make good decisions you look smart- when you ahve players that make bad decisions you look dumb. And no I am not going to blame Woodson for Josh Smith taking dumb shots any more than I'll blame Woodson for Flip Murray taking dumb shots. If there is anything that I would think people could admit was on the players and not the coach it would be taking dumb shots.

D U M B

Telling one of the worst jump shooters in the league to stop shooting 3s is a no brainer. PERIOD. it isn't even debatable but Woody refuses to do it. Smith's lack of BBIQ has been well established so trying to let Smith decide for himself where and when to shoot if flat out dumb. Not only does Smith suck at 3s but when he is behind the 3 pt line..

-the defense doesn't have to guard him, making it easier to guard other guys.
-he can't get offensive rebounds.
-he isn't moving without the ball to get open looks inside which he can actually make.

In short he is doing exactly what the opposing coach wants.

Since you mention Phil Jackson his toughest job when he took over the Bulls was to get Jordan to share the ball. Before their first title season Jackson told Jordan that he shouldn't try to win the scoring title. Jackson started benching Jordan in blowouts so he couldn't pad his stats. Jordans response was to take more shots early. Jackson had to keep working him all year.

During the last game of the finals Jordan kept driving into traffic at the end of the game. Jackson called time out and, in front of the entire team, asked Jordan 'Who's open?". Jordan didn't respond so Jackson asked again. Jordan finally said Paxon. Then Jackson said "ok lets find him."

If Woody had been in that same spot he would have had one thumb up his butt and the other in his mouth playing switch. YOU would have done the same.

KB logic

"I am not going to send out any resume's or fill out any job applications since i know i won't be able to get a job anyway. "

That is straight BS.

[killbuckner]

I think that Smith is more of a weapon catching it in space and driving against an unsettled defense. Its as close as he gets to the transition game where he excels. He doesn't have a strong post game against PF's and isn't a strong reboounder so I really don't get why you are so anxious to see him spend his time in the post.

The big worry I had after he singed the big contract was that he was going to try and make himself a bigger part of the offense than he was before. I have no clue at all why you are surprised its happening since it was so easy to predict.

[JoshB914]

Again, this is not high school basketball. Josh Smith is a grown man and is in his fifth year in the league, Woody can not hold his hand every step of the way. Like Woody said, Josh is a vet now, it is just as much his responsibility to figure out how he fits in as it is Woody's.

Tontoz I like your example with Phil and MJ early in that relationship. Phil didn't tell MJ to "stop" doing anything, he just benched him if he was playing in a selfish manner that hurt the team. That's exactly the same thing that happened the last two games with Josh.

Think about this from Woody's perspective, if he and Josh have drama because Woodson decides to forbid Josh from shooting three's like he's a kid, who is going to end up winning that battle? The guy that just got a 5-year contract extension and is considered a large part of the organization's future? Or the coach who barely held onto his job last season and received a whopping 2-year deal?

[tontoz]

I think that Smith is more of a weapon catching it in space and driving against an unsettled defense.

That is one of the dumbest things i have ever see on this board. Your "in space" argument must have come from outer space.

If you actually played basketball you would know it is a lot easier to beat someone off the dribble when they are 2 feet from you as opposed to 5 feet from you. You can also get to the basket a lot faster from 15-18 feet than from 25 feet. Duh

He doesn't have a strong post game against PF's

First of all Smith's post game is much stronger than his three point shooting. Secondly just because you catch the ball closer to the basket doesn't mean you can't face up against your defender. Do you think there is some rule against facing up?

Smith's post game is way stronger than his 26.4% shooting from 3.

isn't a strong reboounder so I really don't get why you are so anxious to see him spend his time in the post.

He doesn't get many offesnsive rebounds because he is always hanging out at the 3 point line. Double duh

He does his scoring inside and he sucks from 3, therefore he should stop shooting 3s and spend more time inside. That is just grade school common sense.

The big worry I had after he singed the big contract was that he was going to try and make himself a bigger part of the offense than he was before. I have no clue at all why you are surprised its happening since it was so easy to predict.

Smith isn't doing anything different than he has done the previous two novembers.

[tontoz]

Again, this is not high school basketball. Josh Smith is a grown man and is in his fifth year in the league, Woody can not hold his hand every step of the way. Like Woody said, Josh is a vet now, it is just as much his responsibility to figure out how he fits in as it is Woody's.

Tontoz I like your example with Phil and MJ early in that relationship. Phil didn't tell MJ to "stop" doing anything, he just benched him if he was playing in a selfish manner that hurt the team. That's exactly the same thing that happened the last two games with Josh.

Think about this from Woody's perspective, if he and Josh have drama because Woodson decides to forbid Josh from shooting three's like he's a kid, who is going to end up winning that battle? The guy that just got a 5-year contract extension and is considered a large part of the organization's future? Or the coach who barely held onto his job last season and received a whopping 2-year deal?

LOL @ being a grown man at 23. Where do you come up with this nonsense?

Smith's BBall IQ has always been his biggest weakness. He has never shown any sign of being a smart player. Therefore leaving him to decide what shots to take is ludicrous. Smith thinks he is Rashard Lewis and keeps jacking 3s even though he is a career 26.4% shooter and has shown no sign of improvement. Would a "grown man" keep jacking up 3s anyway? Of course not, but a cocky, immature kid would.

Jackson told MJ over and over and over to share the ball. It was an ongoing struggle. If he had used the Woody approach he would have never bothered to even try to get MJ to play more unselfishly.

The "leave it alone and maybe it will go away" strategy isn't going to work.

[JoshB914]

Josh is 23-years old, just because he takes dumb shots in an NBA game doesn't mean he's a child. I don't see where we learned that Woody is "leaving it alone." He's just not going to tell a grown-up exactly what he can or can't do. That is not how coaching works, hell that is not how any good boss does his work (especially when your employees are some of the best in the world at what they do). That sounds more like a high school coach or a parent, and Woody is neither of those.

Woody is obviously telling Smith to work on his shot selection, otherwise he wouldn't have benched him for it TWICE. Just because he hasn't forbidden him from shooting the trey doesn't mean he's ignoring the situation altogether. If Josh wants to keep taking stupid shots, then he can also keep taking a seat on the bench.

Obviously Josh Smith should not be shooting three's. But straight up telling him not to shoot them isn't going to work. Although to be honest I don't mind him taking one every now and then when he's feeling it, and he has a knack for inexplicably hitting important three's in crunch time.

If history is any indication, Josh will rebound very soon and be the player we all know he is. It's not like he hasn't gone through stretches like this before.

[tontoz]

Josh is 23-years old, just because he takes dumb shots in an NBA game doesn't mean he's a child. I don't see where we learned that Woody is "leaving it alone." He's just not going to tell a grown-up exactly what he can or can't do. That is not how coaching works, hell that is not how any good boss does his work (especially when your employees are some of the best in the world at what they do).

You really need to get your nose out of Woody's butt. The methane is seriously hindering your reasoning abilities.

Smith is a child in terms of his on court judgement. he has proven that time and again. If Woody is too much of a pansy to tell a 26.4% shooter from 3 to stop shooting 3s then he should get on of his assistants (preferably one that doesn't sit down to piss) to tell him.

It is a coaches job to tell players what to do. He calls the plays. He tells the players how to run them. He makes the subsitutions. He is in charge of disciplining the players.

You must never have had a job if you don't think the bosses job is to tell you what to do, especially if you are screwing up constantly.

[JoshB914]

It has nothing to do with being up Woody's butt. It has to do with people understanding what the responsibility of a coach is in the NBA. Anything that goes wrong is on Woody around here. At some point, our players need to grow up and take responsibility for their actions. If you expect Woodson to tell everyone what they can and can't do at this level then you have a major misunderstanding of how an NBA locker room works. This is a players league, a HC can only do so much, at some point the players have to go get it done on their own like adults.

Woody has handled the situation by benching Josh. Interestingly, that is the exact same thing that you credited Jackson for when he was with MJ in Chicago (and it was an ongoing struggle as you said, just like it is with Woody/Smoove).

I disagree your sentiment that Woody should stop Josh from shooting three's. If he pulled him whenever he jacked up a trey do you honestly think that would help? I'm not taking issue with that statement though as it just a preference of coaching styles. The statement I take issue with is that you said that Woody has ignored this situation all along. That is clearly not true as he has benched Josh twice this season alone for doing such.