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What would it take to clear out the supposed PG logjam in Memphis to bring him in here to provide insurance for Bibby?
Would the Hawks have enough to offer without impacting the frontcourt?

Cost is the big question. Not sure if we have any pieces that would jump out for them. I guess maybe pick(s)?

i doubt that the hawks would want conley. he still hasn't shown that he can hit long range shots or even mid range shots for that matter. a point guard in woodson's system has to be able to spot up and make good shots from range. quickness and penetration skills aren't as important.

I agree with lunar- I think that Conley would be a great guy to pickup for many teams but Bibby's outside shooting has convinced me that the Hawks need a PG who can knock down an outside shot.

killbuckner wrote:I agree with lunar- I think that Conley would be a great guy to pickup for many teams but Bibby's outside shooting has convinced me that the Hawks need a PG who can knock down an outside shot.

Yep, if we aren't going to turn into an uptempo team that places the ball in the hands of its PG, MCJ isn't the guy to go for. Curry would be a hell of a fit though...

Look at Mem since Iavoroni. He was doing EXACTLY what Woody does and running all of his offense through Bro-J, Conley looked like garbage. He left and the new cat put the ballin Conley's hands and suddenly he's a 20 year old 15-6-5 guy.

Are you guys stating that we are going to be stuck with Woody longterm and shouldn't look to improve there? That was the furthest thing from my mind, making Woody the reason MCJ would not work here.
I thought Bibby was all about up-tempo? I would take my chances with MCJ on this roster anyday. We might all be surprised to see what Bibby is going to ask for, and if we can meet his demands. As we go thru this season, it is obvious he is a HUGE key to any success here.

My main thought was, how much would MCJ cost us? He is starting to come into his own, and IMO fits very well with the personnel on this team, Woody aside.

Maybe unrealistic to think that we could pick him up, but if Memphis does not have him in their long range plans, maybe there is something there to offer?

td00 wrote:Are you guys stating that we are going to be stuck with Woody longterm and shouldn't look to improve there? That was the furthest thing from my mind, making Woody the reason MCJ would not work here.
I thought Bibby was all about up-tempo? I would take my chances with MCJ on this roster anyday. We might all be surprised to see what Bibby is going to ask for, and if we can meet his demands. As we go thru this season, it is obvious he is a HUGE key to any success here.

My main thought was, how much would MCJ cost us? He is starting to come into his own, and IMO fits very well with the personnel on this team, Woody aside.

Maybe unrealistic to think that we could pick him up, but if Memphis does not have him in their long range plans, maybe there is something there to offer?

Bibby CAN run an uptempo team, or at least he has in the past. He isn't now and he's effective in his role as an off the ball spot up shooter. Conley isn't.

Whether or not we should or shouldn't use Woody and his offensive system in evaluating the future of this team's personnel is irrelevant. The point is we do have to.

td00- I look at it more as what kind of PG is going to thrive next to JJ rather than what PG works best for Woodson. There are many teams now that have the offense initiated through a swingman. I wouldn't want Conley next to someone like Brandon Roy either. I think the traditional model has the PG initiating the offense- using him to drive and kick. But when the Hawks are running the offense through Joe- I don't want a non-factor from the outside at PG.

One could make a strong argument that Joe would do better with a play-making guard. Look at how well he performed with Nash. What if we had a Nash or Miller or Calderon and what if Joe were the 1st option with that PG?

That said, Conley is a TERRIBLE shooter from the outside and we already have his twin in Speedy to see what would happen if we played him here.

uhh... JJ has been better with the Hawks than he ever was with the Suns

kill, Joe shot 46.1% from the field and 47.8% (!!!) from 3 his last season with Steve Nash. He's only shot better from the field one year with us and he's never gotten close to his 3pt. efficiency with Nash. My question was, what if he'd been Nash's 1st option, rather than the 3rd or 4th?

I said Joe might do better with a play-making guard. His efficiency with Nash is a good argument for that point.

Parson- its easier to shoot a high percentage when you take fewer shots. Joe is a far superior player now than he ever was in Phoenix.

Conley seems to be the kind of player that can improve a lot in a different team. I like the fact he drives to the basket quite often, he's usually under control and knows what he's doing. His outside isn't good yet, but he reminds me of T.J. Ford, at some point and in the right system his game will blossom. You also have to think that Gay and Mayo need the ball in their hands to create and be effective, that's one of the reasons I believe his game just doesn't fit in well with the Grizzlies.

Another thing is that MCJ isn't a discount acquisition now. He may have been early in the season when he looked like the odd man out in Memphis, but now he's playing big minutes, putting up decent stats, and the team is winning games. He's on his rookie deal until 2011 when he would be a restricted FA. The only incentives that Memphis would have to move him would be to upgrade another position or to dump a bad contract and they only have 2 of those (Jaric and Milicic). Considering they are set at the 2 and 3, it would require a big. We really don't have bigs to spare.

Also, what logjam? Memphis has a 2 PG platoon with both on their rookie deals. That is hardly a log jam. This year they are paying Lowry and Conley combined less than we are paying Speedy Claxton, so it isn't a financial burden either.

killbuckner wrote:Parson- its easier to shoot a high percentage when you take fewer shots. Joe is a far superior player now than he ever was in Phoenix.

One has to think that JJ might be advantaged by playing in a more traditional offense a little more often though... which isn't to say we should go after Conley, but I would like to see Bibby set the table a little more often. Joe is obviously worn out from overuse, this season and last Joe's shooting % is at 43% and his 3pt% is waaaay down from when he played with Nash.

We play Joe like he's Kobe, MJ, or Lebron but the fact of the matter is that he's not close to those guys' level. Now, since we don't utilize "off the ball movement" in our offense, and since Joe isn't often in the game and off the ball anyway, I'm not sure who good he is at moving when the play doesn't focus on him. I have to think though, that he could be used more like a Kevin Martin/Mike Redd kind of guy which would save him some of the work of always having a defender in his grill and another one ready to help out.

I think the team has changed since Joe's first two years here. In those seasons a) no one else was ready or capable to take more of a role in the offense and b) Joe was still a fairly young guy without too much wear on him, both from having played fewer seasons and from having played off the ball more often. Now that we have players who have demonstrated the ability to consistently score with decent efficiency, the team might very well be better off not continually forcing it to Johnson.

parson wrote:One could make a strong argument that Joe would do better with a play-making guard. Look at how well he performed with Nash. What if we had a Nash or Miller or Calderon and what if Joe were the 1st option with that PG?...

With Nash, and maybe Calderon, it would not be a problem, but the reason I was all for Bibby over Miller last year was the fact that Miller can't hit a 3, and even if he has some other skills, I don't see it working with Joe, especially last year when the team did not have outside shooters. This year is different with Murray, Evans, and Marvin starting to hit, but even with them, I still think Bibby is a better fit than Miller.

About Joe in PHX, he was good, but even if I don't remember exactly, they were all able to hit outside shots, so the defense was certainly not able to stop or double him like in ATL before Bibby.
It was so a different team, it's hard to compare.

I agree with parson and COB. I think JJ and the Hawks would be better served to employ an offense that involved movement and team ball. PG penetration with dishes to front-court. Passes into the post to get the bigs involved. Post pass to an open JJ for three. JJ receiving the post pass, faking the three and driving in for an easy 15 footer.

The Hawks were playing like that for the first week or two of the season.

Since then, it's been back to slow it down, iso-ball.

A good coach could deal with this problem and get the Hawks back to team ball.

lunarblues wrote:i doubt that the hawks would want conley. he still hasn't shown that he can hit long range shots or even mid range shots for that matter. a point guard in woodson's system has to be able to spot up and make good shots from range. quickness and penetration skills aren't as important.

FYI Conley's EFG% on jumpers is better than Marvins. He is shooting 38%
from 3 on 100 attempts

killbuckner wrote:Parson- its easier to shoot a high percentage when you take fewer shots. Joe is a far superior player now than he ever was in Phoenix.

this is so wrong it is funny

it is hard getting confidence when you know you only have a few shots a game.

generally, the more shots you take, the better your percentage will be. this is just from experience. if you want stats, you can look at the top 20 guards in shoot percentage, they all take alot of shots per game.

anyway, that is really besides the point. Nash didn't really help that much with Joe's shooting. Joe had alot of open shots because of the system they ran, they had post players, and Woody was not the coach.

Joe's percentage went down mainly because of Woody's offensive system, and also because Woody plays Joe 40 minutes every game (Joe averages more minutes than Kobe, and Wade, and Lebron)

Conley is good, but i don't trust Woody developing a 20yr point guard.

Harry10 wrote:

killbuckner wrote:Parson- its easier to shoot a high percentage when you take fewer shots. Joe is a far superior player now than he ever was in Phoenix.

this is so wrong it is funny

it is hard getting confidence when you know you only have a few shots a game.

generally, the more shots you take, the better your percentage will be. this is just from experience. if you want stats, you can look at the top 20 guards in shoot percentage, they all take alot of shots per game.

anyway, that is really besides the point. Nash didn't really help that much with Joe's shooting. Joe had alot of open shots because of the system they ran, they had post players, and Woody was not the coach.

Joe's percentage went down mainly because of Woody's offensive system, and also because Woody plays Joe 40 minutes every game (Joe averages more minutes than Kobe, and Wade, and Lebron)

Conley is good, but i don't trust Woody developing a 20yr point guard.

The league leaders in shooting percentage have always been guys (like Childress) who don't take many shots.

The guys who lead the league in attempts (like Iverson) rarely shoot a high percentage.