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a championship.

As a Hawks fan, its becoming increasingly apparent that building a team around Joe Johnson is building a team to get knocked out 1st round every year.

just watchin last nights game, the difference between a guy like Roy and Joe Johnson is HUGE...

Joe Johnson actually hurts the team being out there for long stretches nearly every game. I dont think i have ever seen a "star" player ever drag is team down more and more often than Joe.

This is what I've been saying for a while. Joe is a very good player, but he lacks the ability and/or mentality to be a star.

I was thinking this too

As much as i love joe, i think we need to spend our draft pick/s for the player with most star potential. Demar Derozan might be there when we select, and I think he may be our guy. Joe is the perfect 2nd option.

Agreed.

So if Joe isnt the answer, where do we go from here? Big trade? Get more draft picks? What? Does this mean we dont want to pay him in the offseason and let him walk in 2010 and go after someone bigger?

^^^Well I wouldn't let him walk. He still has huge trade value.

I think right now, Atl just need a team that can generate some excitement... a team capable of getting into the 2nd round of the playoffs. You don't find many teams going from nowhere to title contender often. But from playoffs contender to championship contender happens more often.

I don't know if it's fair to treat JJ like that. Most of you around here know how I respect and love this guy for all he's done on and off the court. One thing we all agree on, JJ isn't and prob. will never be at LBJ or Kobe level, not even Wade. Now, take for instance Paul Pierce. I really love his game, but before he got true help from Garnett and Allen, his team sucked for a while or was a 1st round playoff team. When you look at our roster, where does the help come for JJ? I'd say M. Bibby and that's pretty much all. I'm not only talking about scoring. Our SF (2nd overall pick) is a non-factor most of the time. We have a PF that can't put any pressure on the opponent's D cause he can't post up, loves the perimeter and can't rebound. Then we have Horford, who as great as he is, can't draw double teams to open things up for JJ and has been playing out of position since day 1. JJ faces double, sometimes 3 team every night guys, have you played basketball to see how hard that is? In my opinion, we have to bring toughness(Artest), size(Kaman), and attitude into this team. Before we ever think about letting JJ go, I'd trade all of our athletic fowards for guys who have pride, can't stand losing or being the 4th option, and can actually provide solid help on the floor.

Skyhawk1 wrote:I don't know if it's fair to treat JJ like that. Most of you around here know how I respect and love this guy for all he's done on and off the court. One thing we all agree on, JJ isn't and prob. will never be at LBJ or Kobe level, not even Wade. Now, take for instance Paul Pierce. I really love his game, but before he got true help from Garnett and Allen, his team sucked for a while or was a 1st round playoff team. When you look at our roster, where does the help come for JJ? I'd say M. Bibby and that's pretty much all. I'm not only talking about scoring. Our SF (2nd overall pick) is a non-factor most of the time. We have a PF that can't put any pressure on the opponent's D cause he can't post up, loves the perimeter and can't rebound. Then we have Horford, who as great as he is, can't draw double teams to open things up for JJ and has been playing out of position since day 1. JJ faces double, sometimes 3 team every night guys, have you played basketball to see how hard that is? In my opinion, we have to bring toughness(Artest), size(Kaman), and attitude into this team. Before we ever think about letting JJ go, I'd trade all of our athletic fowards for guys who have pride, can't stand losing or being the 4th option, and can actually provide solid help on the floor.

I think they need to trade/let johnsons deal expire in 2010 and go after a guy like Wade.

Superstars win the rings in the NBA and johnson is clearly not a star player.

A Josh Smith, Al horford, and Marvin Williams would be a pretty good supporting cast for a star player to work with.

Part of the problem with the other guys giving joe no help is that he dribbles away 20 seconds of the shot clock every time and then passes it off forcing the other guys to become jumpshooters.

I think Joe is a star not a superstar, and there is a clear definition between them. Skyhawk is somewhat right. Its hard to beleive that in a few years with this same lineup, maybe without Bibby that this team wont be good if great. There is just so much potential and talent that hasnt been fully tapped yet. I think Joe Johnson is a Mo Williams, in the fact that he would be a better complimentary star. Or maybe you could put someone of equal talent next to him and things would be different. Hes not a leader and thats obvious, so we need someone vocal and that will take charge of this team, bc Bibby or Joe hasnt done that, and prob will never do that. Woody needs to leave and thats apparent in my opinion. The Pistons built a franchise without a superstar. If we would of gotten the right players in the draft and not of drafted so many power forwards, and been more commited to defense, we wouldnt even have to worry about a complete overhaul. Its not like were in a bad position, cuz if we draft right and make the right moves we could be at the top of league eventually, but with our ownership the things that should happen prob never will.

superstars don't grow on trees. most nba analysts see jj as a top 5 sg in the nba. instead of complaining about jj not being brandon roy, blame the front office that picked shelden williams instead. instead of blaming mike bibby for not being chris paul, blame the front office that picked marvin williams. good luck finding equal value for joe...

shortstuff5023 wrote:superstars don't grow on trees. most nba analysts see jj as a top 5 sg in the nba. instead of complaining about jj not being brandon roy, blame the front office that picked shelden williams instead. instead of blaming mike bibby for not being chris paul, blame the front office that picked marvin williams. good luck finding equal value for joe...

even with all the misdrafts, the Atlanta front office has gotten enough talent to form a solid young core of players in Williams, Horford, and Smith.

Really all they need to do is let those 3 continue on devoloping and sign one of the superstars when Johnson's deal expires in 2010.

Atlanta isnt really talked about as a big FA destination. But maybe they can convince some one to come here because while all these teams have been ripping its team of all its talent to get under the cap, the hawks will have devoloped a nice supporting cast ready for a superstar to suceed.

the point of this thread shouldn't be trade joe, it's find a player that's as good as joe and bring him here. for all the talk about LBJ, Wade, and the others, even they can't win a championship without help. it took KG, Pierce, and Allen to get together to pretty much gurantee a shot at a championship.

that's what made the bibby trade so great. it allowed us to get a player on JJ's level without giving up that much talent. and it lead to us jumpiong 4 spots from last year to this year. i say we are probably 2 moves away from being able to say that we have a shot at number 1. maybe that means parlying marvin into a salary dump for another team. what if we offered marvin and an expiring speedy claxton in a sign and trade for vince carter or mcgrady. sure the fans might think it's lopsided (it is). but would a front office that's worried about money or the chance of injury do it?

the fact is trading a star for a star isn't going to get you closer to a championship. you have to build the talent level of the team in order to make the jumps into contention.

joe johnson is one of the best all around players in the nba.Instead of blaming him, look at the players around him.al horford and josh smith just don't look comfortable in their positions.marvin williams is too inconsistent...

The Hawks made some mistakes in the draft but saying Joe doesn't deserve any blame at this point is beyond ridiculous. He is our number 1 option and has been ice cold for 2 months(for the 2nd straight year at that). It's getting to the point where his off shooting nights are much more common then the nights where he shoots over 50 % from the floor. That's a horrible sign for a guy we are going to have to commit a massive amount of money to if we decide to keep him.

johnny878 wrote:I think they need to trade/let johnsons deal expire in 2010 and go after a guy like Wade.

Superstars win the rings in the NBA and johnson is clearly not a star player.
...

Do you think that Wade would have won the title without Shaq ? No.
He also had lots of guys able to spread the floor with their outside shooting touch.

The last point is something we started to build, with Bibby as PG, with Marvin becoming a outside threat, even if he still has to work on it...

But the first point ?
Joe is a very good player, a Star, not a Superstar, but he simply doesn't have this player that can help inside like Bibby helps outside since he had been here.
We need a big, a very good big if possible.

About Pierce, we can say he got his Bibby when Allen came in BOS, but a also got Garnett, Joe never got one big guy like that.

DET few years back won couple of titles with who?billups as their no.1 guy? hamilton? raweed?

Dont u guys think our starting five have potential to be as good as/ if not better than that team?

everyone says that they were exception, but i think we have a chance to be special like they were.

Skyhawk1 wrote:I don't know if it's fair to treat JJ like that. Most of you around here know how I respect and love this guy for all he's done on and off the court. One thing we all agree on, JJ isn't and prob. will never be at LBJ or Kobe level, not even Wade. Now, take for instance Paul Pierce. I really love his game, but before he got true help from Garnett and Allen, his team sucked for a while or was a 1st round playoff team. When you look at our roster, where does the help come for JJ? I'd say M. Bibby and that's pretty much all. I'm not only talking about scoring. Our SF (2nd overall pick) is a non-factor most of the time. We have a PF that can't put any pressure on the opponent's D cause he can't post up, loves the perimeter and can't rebound. Then we have Horford, who as great as he is, can't draw double teams to open things up for JJ and has been playing out of position since day 1. JJ faces double, sometimes 3 team every night guys, have you played basketball to see how hard that is? In my opinion, we have to bring toughness(Artest), size(Kaman), and attitude into this team. Before we ever think about letting JJ go, I'd trade all of our athletic fowards for guys who have pride, can't stand losing or being the 4th option, and can actually provide solid help on the floor.

This is a fair assessment. But I'm not talking about Joe struggling with double teams. I'm talking about him missing WIDE OPEN shots all the time, dissappearing in crunch time, playing poor defense and not showing effort on that side of the ball, etc.

Where are the usual suspects when it comes to defending Joe? Maybe they've finally realized that a true star doesn't go through extended stretches of bad basketball every season. There are no excuses this year. He has the best supporting cast he's ever had, a PG to spread the offense and take pressure off of him, and he's healthy.

While Joe's supporting cast is not great, it is better than Wade's, Lebron's, CP3's and other stars'. The difference is that those guys make their teammates better. That's because they are not just very good players, but also great leaders with a burning desire to win. I have almost never seen that in Joe. And it is his unwillingness to take the next step as a player that has prevented this team from taking the next step as well.

Maybe there is some potential to be a team like DET, but they were kind of exception.
Sheed was playing for a contract, help to win the title, but agreed for a lower contract (less than his previous one, and less than he could have get somewhere else).
They had the "good Ben Wallace", and the PF/C combo was better on defense than our combo.

IMO, Smith+Horford won't ever be as good as both Wallace were, that's why we need a better big.

Back to Joe, if he's not a Superstar, or even a Star, it doesn't mean that we can't win with him, but just that we must not depend so much on Joe, and by extension on our backcourt.
We need help inside, and to pay this help, I hope we can keep Bibby and Marvin for less or not more than what they get now ($20M), and that Joe gets an extension, but for no more than what he gets now.

HoopsGuru25 wrote:The Hawks made some mistakes in the draft but saying Joe doesn't deserve any blame at this point is beyond ridiculous. He is our number 1 option and has been ice cold for 2 months(for the 2nd straight year at that). It's getting to the point where his off shooting nights are much more common then the nights where he shoots over 50 % from the floor. That's a horrible sign for a guy we are going to have to commit a massive amount of money to if we decide to keep him.

pretty much this exactly.

He shot 35 pct thru january from the field and 20 pct from 3pt range. This is a pretty major problem when you look at how much he dominates teh ball at times.

The hawks were 2-0 without Joe and the day he came back. the hawks get beat down to the point of embarrassment against the Clips. Obviously, im not saying the hawks are better without Joe but i believe his poor play has really dragged the hawks down lately.

i dont see how people can say Joe is perfect and deserves no blame when he really only plays well for half the season...