TJ Ford or Jose Calderon

Harry10 · Post #1 » by **Harry10** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:43 pm

this thread is not about wether the Hawks should get Ford or Calderon.

i was just wondering, would it be better if Joe was partnered up with a PG who can shoot but can't create, to take the double team pressure off of Joe and just sit back and hit 3s, like Calderon, Jason Terry, Ben Gordon, Crawford, Bibby?

or would Joe be better partnered with a PG who can create but can't shoot, a guy who can dribble into the paint, create and pass and set up Joe and let Joe sit back and take a few open 3s, like Ford, Felton, Sergio Rodriguez, Rondo, Kidd?

TONEGULLY · Post #2 » by **TONEGULLY** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:41 pm

Yeah we need a Rondo on our team. Thats one thing we are missing. A ball handler who can manage a game.

If he had a Rondo on the team, JJ would not have to handle the ball as much. He definately wouldnt be dribbling the ball for 20 seconds. Since Bibby cant create or attack the lane, JJ just sits out there and tries to do it on his own.
It wears him down. Y

TONEGULLY · Post #3 » by **TONEGULLY** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:42 pm

Yeah we need a Rondo on our team. Thats one thing we are missing. A ball handler who can manage a game.

If he had a Rondo on the team, JJ would not have to handle the ball as much. He definately wouldnt be dribbling the ball for 20 seconds. Since Bibby cant create or attack the lane, JJ just sits out there and tries to do it on his own.
It wears him down. You only seen Jordan and other stars bring the ball up when the game is on the line. Bj Armstrong and Paxon and Kerr brought the ball up.
You didnt see Nique handle the ball that much, Doc took care of that and Doc could attack the basket.

JoshB914 · Post #4 » by **JoshB914** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:40 pm

It's kind of funny, I really thought Toronto had two great PG's in those guys and had a very tough decision to make. It turned out both Ford and JC were pretty overrated the whole time, as we've seen this season when both have had a chance to handle the load on their own.

deeps6x · Post #5 » by **deeps6x** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:41 am

Actually, Jose has been injured for about half the season. He is only now getting back to the form he displayed the first 10 games or so. He can shoot threes all day. He can penetrate, but won't. He can make the hard passes, but doesn't have anyone moving to pass to. (but still comes away with games like yesterday's 22 point / 19 assist gem). His main problem is he is CRAP on the other end. No D whatsoever. Well, that and the fact that it is easy to key on three players when there are always 2 CRAP players on the Toronto court at any given time.

But would he work well with JJ? No. They both need the ball to do what they do best.

TJ Ford just wants to be JJ. He tries, but isn't.

TJ and Jose were great together because Mitchell could always use the player who would be more effective against the opposition more. If the Raps needed to play a halfcourt game, Jose got the minutes and the stats. If they needed to run, TJ got the minutes and stats. Plus they always had a FRESH RESTED quality PG to put on the court at all times. We found out that TJ couldn't run for more than 20 minutes this year. The jury is still out on Jose with his injury problem, but it looks like his D has been exposed for what it is - CRAP. And this was overlooked by most people last year.

parson · Post #6 » by **parson** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:20 pm

I think all this debate (all good, of course) just goes to show we don't need one particular type of PG (even though I'd love a great playmaker, myself) but that we need a PG who plays on a high level. This team is so talented that we can go many ways, depending on the leadership. Just give us a good PG .... and Bibby's been good, by the way, (he's just not what I'd love to see here).

In other news, Shaun Livingston was just signed to a multi-year deal by the Thunder. If it turns out that he's healthy now.....

Billy Knight vision .... great playmaker .... loooooong defender .... fast-break leader .... grumble, grumble.

HoopsGuru25 · Post #7 » by **HoopsGuru25** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:16 pm

I don't know if I would call either of them overrated. Calderon is pretty much the same player as he was last season and Ford has decided to became a shoot 1st point guard this year for some odd reason. His assist rate is way down down this year but he's still putting up similar production to Bibby.

Calderon would definitely be a better fit under Woody because he is more of a half court pg who can spread the floor. I still would be more interested in Ford though. Maybe it's just because he destroys us anytime he comes to ATL, but I still think there is a slight chance that he puts it all together and has a Devin Harris like breakout year. I read a while ago that Phillips is his favorite place to play in so I'm still holding out hope that the Hawks show some interest in him.

conleyorbust · Post #8 » by **conleyorbust** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:28 pm

I think calling Calderon a guy who "can't create" and classifying him as just a shooter is a little misleading if not outright stupid. He doesn't penetrate often or push the ball in transition, so in those ways he's not a guy who warps the opponents D and creates for his opponents like that. On the other hand, he's a brilliant passer who can find his man whenever he gets open in the half court. He makes quick passes off of pick-plays too. The assist may be a misleading stat but the dude doesn't get almost 9 a game off of luck. He has great vision.

As for which would be better in ATL. Hard to tell. Calderon is the better shooter so he could play the Bibby role better. TJ is the better one on one player though and thats a HUGE part of the Woody game plan. I'd take either, probably prefer Jose because I trust him mentally to come to play more often, to get injured less, and to be able to play for more minutes per game. His D sucks but honestly, he's about on par with Bibby in that regard, maybe better.

evildallas · Post #9 » by **evildallas** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:42 pm

Going back to the original premise of shooter vs. penetrator/creator:

I think part of the team would be better with a penetrator/creator type PG, but Joe Johnson would probably not be happy and leave at the end of the year. He signed on to be the man which I think in his eyes means getting the ball in half court and creating, not spotting up. A creator type would help Al, Josh, and Marvin greater achieve their maximum value on offense (well at least better value). If Joe is the centerpiece of the team which he is now, then I think you have to have a PG who can shoot open jumpers so he has value without the ball in his hands and handle some creation duties to lighten Joe's load and get more people involved. If nothing else it would be good if the PG can run a pick and roll or other set play to provide greater variation to the Joe iso.

Right now Bibby can shoot, but isn't that much of a creator for others. Flip can shoot and penetrate, but he doesn't have the vision or tendency to pass to create much for others either. Acie can occasionally penetrate but his lack of finishing or shooting makes him the weakest fit. There are definitely PGs in the league that can fill the combo-role, but TJ Ford isn't one. He doesn't shoot well enough. Jose Calderon can fill both roles, but I'm not sure how well he would stay involved when the ball isn't in his hands. Ben Gordon could fill the shooting role and can create for himself, but I'm not sure he can create for others. Kirk Hinrich might be a good fit because he can shoot, play D and run pick and roll.

Harry10 · Post #10 » by **Harry10** » Wed Apr 1, 2009 3:36 am

evildallas wrote:Going back to the original premise of shooter vs. penetrator/creator:
.

thank you evildallas for understanding the topic......... unlike alot of others. :roll:

parson · Post #11 » by **parson** » Thu Apr 2, 2009 11:09 pm

I understand the original premise; I just don't agree with it.

Should we ask what would be better for Joe or should we concern ourselves with what would be better for the team? What would be better for Joe would be for us to trade everyone for defensive stars at each position and let him shoot 50 times a game.