Offical Iverson to Atlanta Thread

mr_grabb · Post #1 » by **mr_grabb** » Wed Apr 1, 2009 3:48 pm

You know what, I'm not even a fan of Iverson. But assuming that he's really sick of his role in Detroit and that he won't resign this offseason, mixed with the fact that Bibby will also be a free agent and the the Hawks management will have the choice (among others) of signing one of the two, I prefer IV.

But I'm really curious to know what you guys think. Would he be a good fit here? Could he potentially be a locker room cancer and and clash with Woodson? Could he return to his All-Star form? More importantly, would he help the Hawks turn into a contending team in the East?

JoshB914 · Post #2 » by **JoshB914** » Wed Apr 1, 2009 3:51 pm

I don't want him. I can't honestly say he helps a team win right now. His athletic ability is gone and he never developed a jump shot to compensate for that. Plus he is a mess defensively. Basically you're talking about a guy who plays a style that his body will not allow him to play effectively anymore.

HoopsGuru25 · Post #3 » by **HoopsGuru25** » Wed Apr 1, 2009 4:17 pm

I wouldn't say his athletic ability is gone. It was just last year when he shot 10 free throws a game. He's lost a step from his prime but he's definitely still quicker than anyone on the Hawks right now. I still think he'd be a horrible fit for the Hawks though.

Post #4 » by **HMFFL** » Wed Apr 1, 2009 4:27 pm

I fully expect the Atlanta Spirit Group to have an interest and Sund probably makes the phone call. I don't see him being a locker room cancer, but I can't picture Iverson playing ping pong with the rest of the guy. It's always easy to mention how many field goal attempts he takes, but he's been under 20 attempts during the last four seasons, so I'm not as concerned about it as some. Iverson will get the ball inside to Al Horford and take the doubles off Joe.

Iverson appears to be acting as professional as possible with Michael Curry, but Iverson's probably not expecting to be back next season, so I doubt he's going to make himself look like a complete fool.

Last night was entertaining:

After playing 18 minutes in Tuesday's loss to the Cavs, Allen Iverson voiced his frustration over such limited playing time.
"I can play 18 minutes with my eyes closed and a 100-pound truck on my back," he said. "I’m wondering what the rush was to get me back. It's a bad time for me mentally." There's no quick fix on the horizon, and A.I.'s owners have to hope that this doesn't damage his already questionable fantasy value. http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.ssf/ ... happy.html

JoshB914 · Post #5 » by **JoshB914** » Wed Apr 1, 2009 4:40 pm

HoopsGuru25 wrote:I wouldn't say his athletic ability is gone. It was just last year when he shot 10 free throws a game. He's lost a step from his prime but he's definitely still quicker than anyone on the Hawks right now. I still think he'd be a horrible fit for the Hawks though.

He will likely lose another step this summer. The guy's scoring ability is completely predicated on him beating guys off the dribble and getting to the line and he can't do that anymore. He has not developed his skills in any other areas (jump shot, defense, distribution), which makes him damaged goods in my eyes.

mr_grabb · Post #6 » by **mr_grabb** » Wed Apr 1, 2009 4:50 pm

I don't think he lost his athletic abilities. The fact that he's an average shooter is not, in my opinion, a factor. If you look at guys like TJ Ford and Devin Harris, for example, they are not great shooters, but makes them very valuable to their team is that they use their quickness to drive to the rim, or penetrate and dish. This has been the story of Iverson's career. As long as he'll have a good shooter or two on his wings, I believe he can benefit a team.

Furthermore, I think it's unfair to us this current season to fully evaluate his talent. He's clearly bumbed-out of being in Detroit, in role and style he is not used to play.

HoopsGuru25 · Post #7 » by **HoopsGuru25** » Wed Apr 1, 2009 6:45 pm

JoshB914 wrote:
HoopsGuru25 wrote:I wouldn't say his athletic ability is gone. It was just last year when he shot 10 free throws a game. He's lost a step from his prime but he's definitely still quicker than anyone on the Hawks right now. I still think he'd be a horrible fit for the Hawks though.

He will likely lose another step this summer. The guy's scoring ability is completely predicated on him beating guys off the dribble and getting to the line and he can't do that anymore. He has not developed his skills in any other areas (jump shot, defense, distribution), which makes him damaged goods in my eyes.

I think you are contradicting yourself. I'm pretty sure last summer you said that Iverson(in a thread about Smith vs Melo)was the reason they won 50 games last year and that we should go after him. You also cosigned the idea that that trading Bibby for Stephon Marbury(a bigger cancer then Iverson could ever dream of being)because of his ability to get to the basket despite him coming off season ending injuries two years in a row.

I could see the argument that he is no longer the freak athlete he was in his prime...but to say he lost he ability to get to the rim overnight is crazy. He went from having the best 1st step in league history to just being "very quick". Iverson is getting the fewest touches at any point of his career right now and he's still getting to the free throw line 6 time game which is one more than the closest Hawk(Smith). The only other players close to his size in the top 40 in ft attempts per game are Tony Parker,Devin Harris,and Chris Paul. It was just last year he was averaging 10 free throws a game. I would guess he would be averaging some where around 8(in between last year and this year)if he was on a team like the Hawks where he wouldn't be trying to sacrifice shots.

ATL DirtyBird · Post #8 » by **ATL DirtyBird** » Wed Apr 1, 2009 8:43 pm

Weve obviously given up on Bibby huh? I dont see how he could not fit in Woodsons offensive philosiphy. Only time will tell, I wouldnt mind him though

johnny878 · Post #9 » by **johnny878** » Wed Apr 1, 2009 9:50 pm

no. hawks need a pg that can create for his teammates. Not another one who jacks up a bunch of shots.

He is still 2x's better than bibby tho.

Post #10 » by **HMFFL** » Wed Apr 1, 2009 9:54 pm

Here are some of the little things that A.I. doesn't get credit for very often.

He's 12th all-time with 1964 steals, Mookie Blaylock is 11th with 2075.

Career Assists: 44th all-time with a 6.22 average.

I'm not saying we should go all out to sign Allen, but we need to pursue him, and I believe he's an upgrade over Mike Bibby. One positive is that Coach Woodson has a strong relationship with many of the Detroit players, so he can get some inside information about Allen for us.

Harry10 · Post #11 » by **Harry10** » Thu Apr 2, 2009 3:51 am

i would rather get Kidd than Iverson

seriously, i would love to see Kidd surrounded by a bunch of athletes. imagine Kidd grabbing a defensive rebound and Josh, Marvin, and Horford sprinting down the floor.

JoshB914 · Post #12 » by **JoshB914** » Thu Apr 2, 2009 3:59 am

HoopsGuru25 wrote:
JoshB914 wrote:
HoopsGuru25 wrote:I wouldn't say his athletic ability is gone. It was just last year when he shot 10 free throws a game. He's lost a step from his prime but he's definitely still quicker than anyone on the Hawks right now. I still think he'd be a horrible fit for the Hawks though.

He will likely lose another step this summer. The guy's scoring ability is completely predicated on him beating guys off the dribble and getting to the line and he can't do that anymore. He has not developed his skills in any other areas (jump shot, defense, distribution), which makes him damaged goods in my eyes.

I think you are contradicting yourself. I'm pretty sure last summer you said that Iverson(in a thread about Smith vs Melo)was the reason they won 50 games last year and that we should go after him. You also cosigned the idea that that trading Bibby for Stephon Marbury(a bigger cancer then Iverson could ever dream of being)because of his ability to get to the basket despite him coming off season ending injuries two years in a row.

I could see the argument that he is no longer the freak athlete he was in his prime...but to say he lost he ability to get to the rim overnight is crazy. He went from having the best 1st step in league history to just being "very quick". Iverson is getting the fewest touches at any point of his career right now and he's still getting to the free throw line 6 time game which is one more than the closest Hawk(Smith). The only other players close to his size in the top 40 in ft attempts per game are Tony Parker,Devin Harris,and Chris Paul. It was just last year he was averaging 10 free throws a game. I would guess he would be averaging some where around 8(in between last year and this year)if he was on a team like the Hawks where he wouldn't be trying to sacrifice shots.

I NEVER said that about Marbury. That is ridiculous. I have been one of Bibby's biggest supporters since he got here (see threads calling for Acie to play over him last year).

I was a big fan of A.I. up until this season, where it's clear he is finally starting to succumb to age. I don't remember saying that I wanted him over Bibby, too. I remember that thread as well and I was arguing for the POV that Melo's value is far higher than Smith's. You've got me confused with someone else.

My point on Iverson is this; The style he plays REQUIRES that he has that elite quickness since he isn't much of a threat to shoot or pass the basketball. You are right that i exaggerated about him not having any athleticism left, but for him to just be "very quick" means his game won't work. Ge is a guy that MUST have the ball in his hands consistently to help a team, and he simply doesn't have that world class athleticism anymore to warrant getting the kind of touches he needs. I'm not interested in giving the ball to a guy that shoots a low percentage and can't get to the line like he once could, its not worth it.

I do not believe he's an upgrade over Bibby any way you look at it. Hell, Bibby might be an even better defender than A.I.

BAMABIRD · Post #13 » by **BAMABIRD** » Thu Apr 2, 2009 5:00 am

HMFFL wrote:Here are some of the little things that A.I. doesn't get credit for very often.

He's 12th all-time with 1964 steals, Mookie Blaylock is 11th with 2075.

Career Assists: 44th all-time with a 6.22 average.

I'm not saying we should go all out to sign Allen, but we need to pursue him, and I believe he's an upgrade over Mike Bibby. One positive is that Coach Woodson has a strong relationship with many of the Detroit players, so he can get some inside information about Allen for us.

I think Woodson coached A.I. in Philly when he was an assistant for Larry Brown.

Skyhawk1 · Post #14 » by **Skyhawk1** » Thu Apr 2, 2009 7:36 am

I was totally against Iverson here till a while ago, but I really think Bibby's game is going down hill after getting another contract, yup, the Smith's disease is contagious... lol. Anyway, the thing about Iverson is, you can't get the best of him if he's not the centerpiece of your offense. For that to happen, he needs the ball, which means 4 guys standing around. He kills any chemistry because the ball doesn't move. The guy has been in the NBA for like over 10 years and people still think/expect he's a PG. He's a scorer and an undersized SG, that's what makes him valuable. Don't even look at his assist numbers, he doesn't make anyone better, it's clear after all those years. Like Harry10 said, J. Kidd would be a better fit here because he's the opposite, he lets the ball go, he makes guys around him better, he makes teammates run cause they know he can find them, that's the kind of guy you want to have on your team.

mr_grabb · Post #15 » by **mr_grabb** » Thu Apr 2, 2009 12:55 pm

However, he had a briliant season last season in Denver, where he had to continuously share the rock with another ballhog, Melo Tony. I understand that the rest of the roster was completed by good suuporting actors, nothing more. But if he could share the ball with Melo, he sure could do it with Bibby.

JoshB914 · Post #16 » by **JoshB914** » Thu Apr 2, 2009 3:05 pm

Skyhawk1 wrote:I was totally against Iverson here till a while ago, but I really think Bibby's game is going down hill after getting another contract, yup, the Smith's disease is contagious... lol. Anyway, the thing about Iverson is, you can't get the best of him if he's not the centerpiece of your offense. For that to happen, he needs the ball, which means 4 guys standing around. He kills any chemistry because the ball doesn't move. The guy has been in the NBA for like over 10 years and people still think/expect he's a PG. He's a scorer and an undersized SG, that's what makes him valuable. Don't even look at his assist numbers, he doesn't make anyone better, it's clear after all those years. Like Harry10 said, J. Kidd would be a better fit here because he's the opposite, he lets the ball go, he makes guys around him better, he makes teammates run cause they know he can find them, that's the kind of guy you want to have on your team.

Bingo. And he doesn't have the skills he once had to make that a feasible option.

It's also worth mentioning that AI came out today and said he'd rather retire than come of the bench. And the only way think his game can work nowadays is with him coming off the bench as a 6th or 7th man.

D21 · Post #17 » by **D21** » Thu Apr 2, 2009 3:39 pm

First, I think it would be a big gamble on the team.
For the same contract, Bibby is a "sure value" even if he can decrease because we know what he can bring to the team.
Iverson ? could be better, could be worst.

That's why I would not imagine signing him instead of Bibby. If we can get a PG with better D than Bibby, I am all for keeping him, he's also "only" 30.

If we are sure to have a PG of the level of Bibby or better next year, maybe I would think about signing Iverson (we don't have to think about "one of them" because Bibby salary cut would certainly allow to sign Iverson for the MLE, and still both would make less than what Bibby gets this year).
But it would mean he should play coming off the bench, a thing he doesn't want.

Maybe if we loose Marvin this summer for nothing (gets an offer, and not matched), it would possible to imagine Joe playing more at 3, with Iverson starting at 2.

But IMO, the DET experience proves he needs a team "build" around him, you can't place him in the middle of a team with guys playing together for years, and be sure it can work, even with the talent of Iverson.

evildallas · Post #18 » by **evildallas** » Thu Apr 2, 2009 7:01 pm

I would want no part of Allen Iverson. The latest story about starting or else he'd rather retire sums it up for me. It is more than starting because it shows that he has no willingness to modify his game for the success of a team. As he loses a step (or another) this is going to become a greater problem for whomever employs him. If his style doesn't fit with his teammates or what his asked to do for a team is different from how he thinks he should play then you already have his decision is. He can't carry a team by himself anymore and his unwillingness to adapt to him makes him a basketball pariah.

Post #19 » by **HMFFL** » Fri Apr 3, 2009 9:55 pm

Iverson's back is going to keep him out for the rest of the season.

lunarblues · Post #20 » by **lunarblues** » Fri Apr 3, 2009 11:16 pm

i wouldn't worry about the next PG's offense as much as i would worry about his defense. we need someone that will be able to defense the opposing PG. if bibby could do that then we wouldn't even be having this conversation. i think we need someone like jack who has never been accused of not being able to play good defense on the opposing point guard.

however if iverson can be shown to play opposing point guards, then i'll be very receptive to having him here.