RealGM

3 years, $17 million.

Jason Kidd can still compete at a high level, and does it by bringing what the Hawks need most: leadership, and basketball IQ.

Why does Josh take so many jumpers? Why doesn't Horford take more shots despite his talent? Why does JJ-iso comprise a good 75% of our offense? The answer is twofold: A) Mike Woodson doesn't know how to run an offense in the least B) the team doesn't have a true leadership presence.

Jason Kidd brings both of those things, and more importantly, he can teach our PG of the future, whether it's Law or the #19 pick (we BETTER draft a PG, or else), how to be a game manager. He's what the Hawks need in a PG, unlike what we had with Bibby (a shoot first PG).

Thoughts?

I think Kidd is at the stage of his career where he is going to go ring chasing.

even though Kidd is on the decline and his number are way down, i wouldn't mind seeing him in a Hawks uniform.... I think his leadership alone is something that could get the Hawks further in the playoffs.

Yeah, the leadership and baksetball IQ alone I think could push the Hawks to the ECF.

Toss in a young skilled PG, and maybe a select good move or two (JJ for Bosh or something else), and I think we'd have a reasonable shot at the championship.

Is he good? Yes.

Is he worth using all of our mle on when we still don't have a big man to backup our guys (no zaza doesn't count since he is horrible)? No.

Don't be taking my Point Gaurd!!!!!! Just for a little insight on Kidd, is that Donnie Nelson and Cuban love him. Dallas is going to offer him more money than anybody else. It would probably take a sign and trade to get him.
He would be perfect for your team. He is still the best point gaurd running the break, setting his teammates up for easy baskets and open looks. You would love him, I watched every game he has played with the Mavericks. He never takes a play off, still the best rebounding point in the league, he was #2 in steals, and he is money with his feet set on open 3's. He will run your team exactly how a basketball team should be run. He also said he wants to play until he is 40, and I think he can do it. He did not look like he lost a step last year running the Mavs.
He would make Josh Smith and Marvin Williams much better players. I think he would be a great fit for your team and the Trailblazers, but I don't see him going anywhere unless Lebron comes calling. If that happens I think my Mavs will lose him.

uga, we could just not resign Bibby, since his shoot-first mentality actually hurts the team and destroys any offensive rhythm.

Maverick Junkie summed up my opinion perfectly. Yes, Kidd is old, and can no longer play great defense, but he can do it just as well as Bibby, and unlike Bibby, actually mentor the Hawks.

azuresou1 wrote:uga, we could just not resign Bibby, since his shoot-first mentality actually hurts the team and destroys any offensive rhythm...

Because you think it's Bibby's fault ?

Bibby is certainly not what we can call a pass first PG, but he knows how to run offense, to use pick'n roll... it's mainly Woody's offense that doesn't allow him to play like that.

azuresou1 wrote:uga, we could just not resign Bibby, since his shoot-first mentality actually hurts the team and destroys any offensive rhythm.

Maverick Junkie summed up my opinion perfectly. Yes, Kidd is old, and can no longer play great defense, but he can do it just as well as Bibby, and unlike Bibby, actually mentor the Hawks.

And how does that resolve our big man issues?

To D21: I'm not pinning the blame solely on Bibby; I agree, Woodson's offense, or lack thereof, murders the team. However, Bibby is and has always been a shoot-first kind of guy, and as a veteran and leader of the team, his style of play impacts the rest of the offense. If Kidd ran our point, I'm sure Woody would still draw up dumb plays, but Kidd has that level of respect that I think the team, including JJ, would listen to him; a player-coach, if you will. That leadership would be more beneficial than Bibby's better shooting.

To uga: We don't resign Bibby, and use the money saved to:
A) Sign Birdman. Great energy player who can also perhaps pump up Smoove and Al to actually play like they're 22 all the time, rather than only on 3-on-1 fast breaks. The defensive presence doesn't hurt.
B) Make offers to Millsap, Big Baby, or Pops Mensa Bonsu. All of them could help the team, in one way or another. My preference based on the value we'd get for the salary asked would be Millsap, Bonsu, and Big Baby. I believe all 3 are restricted free agents, but I'm not sure.

Bibby savings - $15.23 million
Kidd - $6 million/year - $9.23 million left
Birdman - $3 million/year - $6.23 million left
Probably can't afford Millsap
Big Baby - $4 million/year - $2.23 million left
Bonsu - $1.5 million/year - $725k left

By not resigning Bibby, we can salary-wise afford to sign Kidd, Birdman, Big Baby, and Pops Mensah Bonsu to what I think are reasonable contracts for both sides. I would resign Zaza to the same contract he had, maybe a slight raise, since I think he's a good backup big, but you seem to disagree. In any case, here's what we would be able to do with the savings by not resigning Bibby:

Kidd/Law/#19
Joe Johnson/Mario West
Marvin Williams/Mo Evans
Josh Smith/Big Baby
Al Horford/Birdman/Pops/Morris

There are no quality starting Cs available off FA, and unless we make a major trade (i.e. moving Smoove, JJ, or Horford), we won't be able to get one. In my mind, the big man issue is an entirely separate issue... although I suppose I could make a topic about my dream moves.

No. Given the contract situation offering the entire MLE to Jason Kidd costs us Flip Murray and any credible addition in the front court. Even if you resign Marvin and Zaza, how are we any better with Kidd instead of Bibby, no scoring option off the bench like Flip and no one else added to the front line.

I'm also in the camp that Bibby doesn't hurt the offense. He's not a great penetrating playmaker because he doesn't have the speed anymore and he's never been all that defensively, but he can run an offense. I observed the first couple of weeks he got here that he was introducing more offensive plays that I'd seen out of the Hawks in years.

The problem is the way the offense is structured with starters (primarily Joe) on the floor. I say this because when Acie is on the floor with all backups they try to run pick and rolls and actual offensive sets, but the talent on the floor at that time mitigates any success they may enjoy. It's as if when the starters are out there that the coaching staff believes that at least one of the players should have a 1 on 1 advantage against their defender and all me need are isolations. We saw that doesn't work so well in the playoffs. Joe wasn't able to get separation against Lebron. Josh's handle is suspect if the defense swarms or is allowed to hack at the ball. Marvin wasn't able to go up strong on drives. Al was confounded by length on his shots. Bibby could hit shots but not penetrate. Flip could penetrate but teams could play him to shoot exclusively which lessened his effectiveness. The offense is structured on the concept of a player beating his defender enough to either get a shot or create an opening for someone else. In hindsight, Billy Knight really screwed the pooch by passing on Brandon Roy. Roy while not a true PG has a strong enough handle to play beside Joe, could penetrate on offense allowing a lighter workload for Joe, and would fit in the switch everything defense much better because of his 6-6 size. He would have fit perfectly what Woodson likes to run with Joe even if it would have been unconventional (It didn't work with Childress back there because he wasn't quick enough or had a strong enough handle to play the position).

Evil, I completely agree with you that a penetrating PG would be ideal for this team. I was praying and begging Billy to draft Roy for that and many other reasons. The question now is how to find another option at PG who can do that. Perhaps we can get lucky in the draft and get a PG that can do that like Flynn, but I think it's going to be a long shot. The only other option I see is to get a coach that can run a system that will be more effective with the players we have. Someone who will stop all the iso's and get guys to move around more. To me that sounds like a better option from the standpoint that we have plenty of great passers on this team. We just need a way to get them all moving in a way that will allow them to get more open shots and lanes to the basket.

azuresou1 wrote:
To uga: We don't resign Bibby, and use the money saved to:
A) Sign Birdman. Great energy player who can also perhaps pump up Smoove and Al to actually play like they're 22 all the time, rather than only on 3-on-1 fast breaks. The defensive presence doesn't hurt.
B) Make offers to Millsap, Big Baby, or Pops Mensa Bonsu. All of them could help the team, in one way or another. My preference based on the value we'd get for the salary asked would be Millsap, Bonsu, and Big Baby. I believe all 3 are restricted free agents, but I'm not sure.

Bibby savings - $15.23 million
Kidd - $6 million/year - $9.23 million left
Birdman - $3 million/year - $6.23 million left
Probably can't afford Millsap
Big Baby - $4 million/year - $2.23 million left
Bonsu - $1.5 million/year - $725k left

By not resigning Bibby, we can salary-wise afford to sign Kidd, Birdman, Big Baby, and Pops Mensah Bonsu to what I think are reasonable contracts for both sides. I would resign Zaza to the same contract he had, maybe a slight raise, since I think he's a good backup big, but you seem to disagree. In any case, here's what we would be able to do with the savings by not resigning Bibby:

Kidd/Law/#19
Joe Johnson/Mario West
Marvin Williams/Mo Evans
Josh Smith/Big Baby
Al Horford/Birdman/Pops/Morris

There are no quality starting Cs available off FA, and unless we make a major trade (i.e. moving Smoove, JJ, or Horford), we won't be able to get one. In my mind, the big man issue is an entirely separate issue... although I suppose I could make a topic about my dream moves.

That isn't how fa works.

We are over the cap even if we renounce Bibby and flip due to marvin's and chill's cap holds, as well as zaza's.

Could you explain? I'm not doubting you, I'm just not really sure how everything works out.

My understanding was that the cap this next year was $57.3 million. Assuming we don't resign anyone or extend Marvin, I believe our figure is $40.87 million. I'm drawing all my numbers from here (http://hoopshype.com/salaries/atlanta.htm), so forgive me if I'm wrong.

Say we extend Marvin for $8 mil annually; that pushes the total to $41 mil. We resign Zaza for $4 million, bringing it to $45 million. $12.3 million left. So far, so good.

J-Chill is from the looks of things not coming back, so we should release our hold. We sign Birdman for $3 million, leaving $9.3 million left. We sign Bonsu for $1.5 million, leaving $7.8 million under cap. We sign Big Baby for $4 million, leaving us $2.8 million under cap. We'll say this amount is $0, because perhaps, say, Marvin or Zaza wants a bit more, or so on.

We then use our MLE to sign Kidd, which is fine, because the MLE lets us go over the cap. We can also sign whatever first round picks, through the rookie exception.

Am I wrong about any of this?

First of all I'd use this site- hoopshype is horrid. http://www.storytellerscontracts.info/r ... laries.htm

But here is your problem...

My understanding was that the cap this next year was $57.3 million. Assuming we don't resign anyone or extend Marvin, I believe our figure is $40.87 million.

Say we extend Marvin for $8 mil annually; that pushes the total to $41 mil.

Uh... where do you get that?? If our figure is 41 million before marvin and you sign him for 8 million a year that pushes you to 49. Zaza for another 4 by your numbers pushes the number to 53. And that assumes taht Marvin would sign for that value early in free agency- until he signs a new contract he counts as 14 million dollars and he really has no reason to sign early in FA.

Thanks for the site, I just looked at the hoopshype total and assumed that the $41 million included Marvin at $7.3 mil.

Hm... okay, that puts a damper on things. Still, at $53 mill, we'd still be $4.3 million under cap, without the MLE, so we could still sign either Big Baby or both Birdman and Pops Mensa Bonsu, and then use the full MLE on Kidd.

Right?

PS: Thanks for being helpful, it really is helping me learn about FA signings.

No... In order to use caproom you have to renounce the MLE, BAE, Childress, Bibby, ETC. There is no way to use caproom and then use the MLE.

Oh... that really blows.

So there's no feasible way to get Kidd and sign a FA big then, barring a S&T deal that would never happen, correct?

^^^ If we to sign Kidd we could possibly S&T Bibby for a big man.

Well, I was thinking of that, but who would trade for Bibby, an old, shoot-first PG who can't defend, and at the same time give us a big man we'd actually want?

I can't think of any off the top of my head, but IMO it seems about as likely as us doing a S&T PG swap with Dallas and then using our MLE to pick up bigs. Which would seem... not likely.

Actually, Boston needs a backup PG better than Marbury, right? S&T for Big Baby?