Pro Iso-Joe Article

[evildallas]

link here

It's an article in defense of iso-Joe and I'm still very skeptical. Imo, what the author and evidently Joe and Woody don't get is what teams iso doesn't work against like Cleveland for instance. You can probably expand that to teams that can physically d up Joe. Boston cannot do this and can be lit up. Boston's defense strengths are C and PG (and PF if KG is healthy). They are exploitable on the wings which is a major reason why we thrive against them with iso-Joe.

Furthermore, the other thing they don't seem to embrace is what to do if the defense doubles the isolation which by definition should leave the defense vulnerable if you can hit the open man (normally with the 2nd pass). Too often the open man is Josh outside as we vacate the paint to leave it open for Joe to penetrate. The team needs to adjust when this happens and send Josh back down low and rotate someone else out to the relief spot. This is my biggest criticism of iso-Joe, well two-fold criticism. Part one is that it looks like everyone else's job is to just stay out of the way. Part two is that Joe fails to react in a timely way to a double team. Backing up and pounding the ball is not a timely react. If a defense is willing to come and double at 20+ feet from the basket you have to be prepared to exploit that for a wide open shot. If the rest of the team isn't hitting the open shot then you need to use the bench to try another shooter. 8-12 minute offense dry spells cry out to hit the bench.

Does the article and the Boston games make a believer out of you?

[azuresou1]

This article is horrible. Boston has terrible wing defense, and in fact are now a bad defensive team. This is why iso-play works against them. Against a team like Orlando, their wing defenders will overplay to force you into Dwight. In this case Joe will either take a much tougher jumper, since the defenders can contest much more, or be forced to drive into Dwight, while avoiding contact, which is begging to have his shot blocked.

Iso-ball works against bad teams which is why Bronball gets the Cavs 60+ wins, but puts them a buzzer-beater 3 away from getting swept against Orlando.

[killbuckner]

When the opposition doubles I want Joe recognizing the open man and letting the other Hawks attack against an unsettled defense. I think the frustration people have with the offense is when Joe gets doubled, recognizes the open man, and then shoots anyway. Joe is not the kind of player who can beat a double team on his own consistently. The Hawks have a lot of guys who are FAR more effective attacking a defense that is already on the move.

If the other team is staying home and Joe is unable to score 1 on 1 with no help defense then its time to use a different offense. But when Joe is getitng doubled that means that other guys are open- its then up to Joe to get the ball to someone in position to do something with it.

The Hawks don't have any good options on offense against a settled defense other than Jamal and Joe. The rest of the Hawks are FAR more effective attacking against an unsettled defense.

Against orlando the problem is that neither Josh SMith nor Horford can draw Howard away from the basket at all. And when Joe isn't tryign to get to the line the team is forced to just shoot jumpers. But thats a problem with Joe not being willing to initiate contact- not with the idea of letting Joe start the offense by taking his man off the dribble.

[azuresou1]

I don't think anyone has ever said that it's bad to have Joe or Jamal initiate the offense. That said, both need to pass better out of doubles, and both need to slash more.

Against Orlando the problem is we're not putting Dwight into foul trouble. Instead of shying away from contact (the guards) or going for post moves (Josh/Al), they should all just drive for the layup THROUGH Dwight. Sure, some will get blocked, but we'll also put him into foul trouble very quickly, especially Jamal, who's very quick, and Josh, who's strong enough to draw a foul and still have a chance of finishing. Josh should probably actually try to finish over Dwight - probably won't succeed, but it'd be almost a guaranteed foul on Dwight.

[Jcrawford11]

joe n craw are the 4th and 6th most efficent sgs in the nba http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinge ... onType%3d2

[azuresou1]

Which has absolutely nothing to do with team offense.

[killbuckner]

Joe and Jamal don't go to the line nearly enough- its a big problem for the Hawks. They are content to settle for midrange jumpers instead of pressing the advantage to draw contact. The irony is that the benefit of starting with an iso is that the help has a long way to slide so you should be able to get to the line a ton more than other offenses.

And I think the Magic are perfectly content to let Rashard Lewis or Anderson cover Josh Smith 1 on 1 and make him try and beat a player that is both quick and longer than him. If you want Josh matched up against Howard I think you have to bench Horford and go small.

[azuresou1]

Joe and Jamal don't go to the line nearly enough- its a big problem for the Hawks. They are content to settle for midrange jumpers instead of pressing the advantage to draw contact.

And I think the Magic are perfectly content to let Rashard Lewis or Anderson cover Josh Smith 1 on 1 and make him try and beat a player that is both quick and longer than him. If you want Josh matched up against Howard I think you have to bench Horford and go small.

Josh sets up on the left block. Joe gives him a inlet pass. Al sets a back screen on Shard (or Anderson). Josh drives to the left. Dwight comes up to provide help. Marvin cuts into the gap left by Dwight from the corner 3 spot, while Jamal rotates from the top wing to the corner spot. Joe moves to the top of the 3. From here, either Josh goes for the dunk (I don't want him going for a contested layup against Dwight, I want some hard contact), or he dumps it off to someone, who should be open.

[killbuckner]

You have to be joking.

Josh sets up on the left block. Joe gives him a inlet pass. Al sets a back screen on Shard (or Anderson).

Then Josh turns the ball over because You are openly inviting Josh smith to be doubled when the defense is completely set. You are bringing the best help defender in the league to the ball when its in Josh Smith's hands, how can you POSSIBLY think thats a good idea? I do not want the ball in Josh Smith's hands when you roll out the red carpet allowing Dwight Howard to take the ball from him.

Basically you are asking why you don't have Josh Smith start a pick and roll. Ridiculous.

[azuresou1]

Please explain to me how Shard is going to double Josh when he's just had a quick backscreen set on him just as Josh begins to drive past him.

This requires that we actually, you know, take advantage of our athleticism instead of just ambling into a play like we usually do. I know, it's a shocking concept, playing to our strengths instead of just letting it go to waste.

[killbuckner]

Presumably you are talking about Rashard Lewis guarding Smith in the post, with Howard guarding Horford. When Horford goes to set the pick then the Magic would just take you up on your very generous offer to trap Josh Smith with the best help defender in basketball. Seriously- you would be better off just having Josh throw the ball out of bounds so that the magic wouldn't get the fast break opportunity.

This isn't playing to the team's strengths- this is waving the white flag by trying to have Josh Smith beat a doubleteam against a set defense.

To take advantage of the Hawks athleticism I think it would be far more useful to spread the floor and Let Joe or Crawford beat their man one on one. Then the Help defense would have a LONG ways to go and then you could get the ball to Smith or Horford against an unsettled defense when they do have a very good chance of doing something useful with the ball.

[azuresou1]

Presumably you are talking about Rashard Lewis guarding Smith in the post, with Howard guarding Horford. When Horford goes to set the pick then the Magic would just take you up on your very generous offer to trap Josh Smith with the best help defender in basketball. Seriously- you would be better off just having Josh throw the ball out of bounds so that the magic wouldn't get the fast break opportunity.

This isn't playing to the team's strengths- this is waving the white flag by trying to have Josh Smith beat a doubleteam against a set defense.

To take advantage of the Hawks athleticism I think it would be far more useful to spread the floor and Let Joe or Crawford beat their man one on one. Then the Help defense would have a LONG ways to go and then you could get the ball to Smith or Horford against an unsettled defense when they do have a very good chance of doing something useful with the ball.

No, I'm talking about Shard guarding Josh faceup on the left baseline, 15-ish feet from the basket. Shard is obviously going to sag off of Josh, which in this case works because this lets Josh get one or two steps to pick up speed before he's even with Shard, who won't be able to help guard because Al will set a back pick just as Shard would have dropped his right foot in to keep Josh away from the basket.

You can't trap a running player - the logistics of the situation make it really easy to be called for a reach in or shooting foul, and that's if you have two people. Since Shard is now eliminated by the backpick 15-ish feet from the basket, you now have Josh dribbling to the basket 8 feet away.

Now, depending on how Al set the screen, either Josh or Marvin is open. If Al just runs over to behind Shard, Dwight follows Al, and Josh can dish it to Marvin cutting to where Dwight just was with a moderately difficult pass that he nonetheless can make. If Al makes a V-cut behind Dwight while Joe still has the ball at the top of the key, Dwight might initially read a screen for Marvin, and be late on the help defense against Josh.

You can come up with different plays, but I literally cannot see how you would trap a driving player who was just freed via a backscreen.

[azuresou1]

And yes I realize I initially said left block instead of left baseline.

[killbuckner]

Right- before you were talking about the left block, but having Josh Smith face up on the baseline is an even worse idea to me.

At that point Rashard lewis sags off an has exactly one job- force Josh Smith to the baseline. A backscreen isn't going to help with that. Josh smith goes baseline and is met be Dwight Howard who is right there because you were generous enough to send his man (who he barely sees the need to cover as is) directly to the ball. Once Howard seals Josh Smith on the baseline, Lewis is then free to complete the trap because Horford isn't allowed to hold him after the pick. So you have managed to get Josh Smith the ball being trapped by Lewis and Dwight Howard pinning him to the baseline. Congratulations on your brilliant play.

Somehow you think that this is better than having the ball in the hands of Joe Johnson in the middle of the court where Howard has a longer way to go to help on defense. I fully agree that after Howard goes to help that Joe needs to be more willing to draw contact or to get the ball to the open man, but to me clearly Joe is better equipped to do so compared to Josh Smith. Josh Smith with the ball in his hands in the situation you describe is suicide. You are making it easier for the other team to help against a player who has no ability whatsoever to deal with a doubleteam.

[azuresou1]

Josh Smith isn't getting trapped because he has Al Horford setting a backside pick and Josh either has enough space that he can go baseline without getting trapped, or he goes towards the middle of the court if Shard overplays the baseline. The play you've described makes no sense. The play I've described is completely different and has way more options. I'm almost tempted to pop open MS Paint and draw it for you, but Imageshack is blocked at work anyways, so that'd defeat the point.

Joe has already PROVEN that he can do nothing against Orlando. Our eFG, TO%, pretty much every single offensive metric craters against Orlando, and that's because Woody, like you, is stuck with this idea of running iso-Joe which CLEARLY DOESN'T WORK BECAUSE WE DON'T TAKE DWIGHT HOWARD OUT OF THE GAME.

Joe Johnson does not pass well out of double teams and does not draw contact well. This is who he is. There is nothing you can say that will get Joe to drive into Dwight and take the hard foul because he's shied away from contact ever since he broke his face, just like he will work a soft double until it becomes a hard double, there's no time left on the clock, or he successfully breaks it.

Given the choice between a proven failed strategy and trying to run plays for our hyperathletic forward who doesn't mind contact, I'm going to take the latter 10/10.

EDIT* I realize in retrospect the play has a higher chance of succeeding from the right baseline, since Josh is lefthanded. The point still stands.

[killbuckner]

I don't know why you think this is a difficult play to imagine. You are describing a Pick and roll on one of the baselines where Josh Smith is the ball handler. That is just one of the most ridiculous ideas I have ever seen someone waste so much time describing. Josh Smith has to be one of the last players in the league I want running a Pick and Roll against the Magic.

IF Joe Johnson were simply drawing as many fouls as last season I think it would make a big difference. I think he is just really worried about extra contact because its a contract year.

[azuresou1]

A pick and roll more often than not gives the defense time to decide who picks up who and some sort of time to react. A backscreen, particularly off a V-cut, involves taking the defense unaware and having the defender being bumped enough that his man can cut right by him forcing the help to step up. There is a pretty clear difference.

Heck, Josh doesn't even need the ball in his hands in this situation, a simple off-the-ball backscreen and then curl cut would do wonders, and is probably better than the play I envisioned. This, however, would still be a play, and thus different from iso-Joe.

IF Joe Johnson were Kobe Bryant I think it would make a big difference. But it's clear he isn't, and he's also avoiding contact this year, so I don't see why you're going into these hypotheticals that clearly aren't going to happen.

[killbuckner]

You are the one that was describing Josh setting up on the block and getting an inlet pass which has nothing at all to do with Vcuts and taking the defense unaware. Then you talked about Josh Smith facing up on the baseline which once again has nothing at all to do with a V cut and taking the defense unaware. Becafuse you are now talking about taking the defense unware then I think you are finally starting to understand that letting Josh hav ethe ball when the defense is a bad idea. Thats just not a skillset that Josh has.

If you want to talk about Josh and Horford moving without the ball then I think you need to go back and watch how the Magic actually play those guys. They already are basically going zone on defense- they aren't going to care about Josh and Horford doing whatever they want to. They are just shutting off the inside and ceding the 18 foot jumper to either Josh or Al. If you think that Josh can take Lewis or Anderson off the dribble thats a fine play as Josh does draw a lot more fouls than Joe and Crawford, but I think sending Horford's man to the ball is a brutal idea.

If Josh Smith were Pau Gasol then I think running the offense through teh forwards would make a big difference. I just think you are imagining all sorts of plays that require Josh Smith to be an entirely different player with an entirely different skillset.

[azuresou1]

Josh isn't the one using a V-Cut, Al is using a V-Cut to set a back screen. He comes from the FT line-ish area, fakes a quick post up or screen or whatever, and then cuts across to behind Shard. This lets Josh get clear past Shard to deal with Dwight. Heck, he doesn't even need to start with the ball, he can catch the pass as he's going around his defender and instantly bring it up to draw the foul.

Now, Josh has a lot of work to do regarding his handles and shooting touch, but I'll be damned if he can't bring up the ball quick and high enough that he can get a layup, draw a foul, or dump it off to Marvin who is cutting into the now-vacant area that Dwight was. The zone, if anything, makes it easier for us, because after Josh slashes we can now overload the zone opposite by bringing in Marvin and rotating Crawford over to the spot.

Would I have Josh start 0-3, with 2-4 from the line in order to give Dwight a quick two fouls 3 minutes in? Yes, I would. In fact, I would attack Dwight as much as humanly possible. Because we can live with Josh having an ugly start. We can't live with the best help defender in the league pretty much shutting down our team singlehandedly.

And yes, I would infinitely much rather have Joe or Jamal slash it, but both of them would avoid contact, and avoiding contact with Dwight means a bad look or a blocked shot, and no fouls.

[killbuckner]

I know you think you are describing something new- but you are describing Josh Smith with teh ball and Horford setting a screen for him for a pick and roll. It doesn't matter if Horford is using a V cut to get to Josh Smith if Howard doesn't see the need to cover horford outside of 12 feet. Its still guest wrapping a doubleteam when you want Josh Smith to beat his man off of the dribble. And when you run a PnR with a poor ball handler who doesn't ahve great court vision and turns the ball over a ton- the proper defense is to JUMP the pick and roll and trap the guy with the ball. I do not at all want Josh Smith to be put in that position because I think its a disaster for the Hawks.

You can keep trying to tell me why your magical play is really really different than what I am talking about- but I will always think that allowing the other team to easily Doubleteam Josh Smith with the ball is an absolutely ridiculous idea.