Game Thread – Celtics @ Grizzlies – 8:00PM, Sun, Nov. 19, 2023

[JaMarco]

It wasn't wide open. You had the reigning DPOY in Jackson ( who lead the NBA in blocked shots) challenging the shot. That's why he missed a dunk. Thats why you hold the ball, take time off the clock until they foul. They had virtually the whole shot clock to use up

If the dunk wasn't wide open then Holiday should've have held the ball.

If you just hold the ball waiting for a foul the other team doesn't have to foul you, they could also steal the ball.

They could steal the ball but that would be the same outcome as a block and a fast break opportunity? They could also be forced to foul and even if you miss both free throws your defense is set up. I’ll take my chances taking time off the clock while making free throws too. Those generally aren’t contested by the reigning DPOY.

Obviously the play turned out to not be open, I'm just saying Tatum made the pass because he thought Holiday was wide open, which would have been the right play if he was.

[shackles10]

If the dunk wasn't wide open then Holiday should've have held the ball.

If you just hold the ball waiting for a foul the other team doesn't have to foul you, they could also steal the ball.

They could steal the ball but that would be the same outcome as a block and a fast break opportunity? They could also be forced to foul and even if you miss both free throws your defense is set up. I’ll take my chances taking time off the clock while making free throws too. Those generally aren’t contested by the reigning DPOY.

Obviously the play turned out to not be open, I'm just saying Tatum made the pass because he thought Holiday was wide open, which would have been the right play if he was.

Hindsight is always 20/20 so if he makes the pass and Jrue makes it we’re all praising them for making the “smart” play you’re right. IMO it’d be a case of the wrong play working out if that happened though.

[JaMarco]

They could steal the ball but that would be the same outcome as a block and a fast break opportunity? They could also be forced to foul and even if you miss both free throws your defense is set up. I’ll take my chances taking time off the clock while making free throws too. Those generally aren’t contested by the reigning DPOY.

Obviously the play turned out to not be open, I'm just saying Tatum made the pass because he thought Holiday was wide open, which would have been the right play if he was.

Hindsight is always 20/20 so if he makes the pass and Jrue makes it we’re all praising them for making the “smart” play you’re right. IMO it’d be a case of the wrong play working out if that happened though.

Watching this play again I totally see why Tatum made the pass, he was about to get double-teamed trapped and Holiday flashed open towards the hoop. Holiday has to make this dunk, Jackson was late to contest.

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[Triple7]

Honestly Holiday was wide open, was the right play, NBA player needs to be able to finish a dunk.

Nah. You hold that ball till they foul you.

Idk, I can see it from both sides. What if he gets fouled and misses both FT's? In that moment, Jrue saw a wide open lane to the basket with no defender in sight. He felt like it was an easy 2 points by going in for the dunk - he saw it as more of a guaranteed 2 points, rather than getting fouled and trying to hit 2 FTs..

I've seen plenty of times where in a situation like that, the guy goes in for the layup or dunk to make it a 2 (or even 3) possession game, rather than getting fouled and it's still a 1 (or 2) possession game.

Plus, if you stand there waiting to get fouled, you never know - maybe the defender knocks the ball loose while trying to foul you, and the dude steals the ball from you..that's one reason why sometimes guys go in for the dunk/layup if they think they have it in that situation.

Lol. Well, Jrue shouldn’t have tried to shoot that. JJJ bothered his dunk attempt. He could have pulled it out again. Watching it from a different angle, it was a weak ass soft attempt by Jrue.

[Triple7]

Not if there's a wide open dunk there.

It wasn't wide open. You had the reigning DPOY in Jackson ( who lead the NBA in blocked shots) challenging the shot. That's why he missed a dunk. Thats why you hold the ball, take time off the clock until they foul. They had virtually the whole shot clock to use up

If the dunk wasn't wide open then Holiday should've have held the ball.

If you just hold the ball waiting for a foul the other team doesn't have to foul you, they could also steal the ball.

Tatum should have held the ball, but passing it to a wide open Jrue is fine. Jrue shouldn’t have attempted to shoot, knowing JJJ was lurking behind. He should have dribbled it out. That should have been the play

[ThePigeon]

This was classic playing down to your opponent.

I'm not so sure about that. I think the Celtics improved by replacing Smart with Jrue. Sans Smart, the Grizzlies crushed the Spurs on the road and almost beat the Cs tonight.

One thing that was disturbing. The ghosts of Celtics Past Drafts materialized. Bane (appropriately named) killed the Cs while Pritchard continues to suck. Moreover, Santi Aldema was a terror tonight. The Cs caught Memphis at a bad time. The Grizz is waking up.

That said, last year's team loses this one. Imagine the general attitude on this forum had the Cs stood pat over the summer.

Nope. It’s playing down to your opponent. You could see the lack in effort, like they were bored or something. I agree, if this was last year, we lose this one.

Lack of effort and playing with some kind of cockiness as if they just need to show up and they'll win. Reminds me of some of last years games where we played sub .500 or depleted teams.

This year we have KP and Jrue (and our defense at times) to hold us above water.

[celtxman]

Not if there's a wide open dunk there.

It wasn't wide open. You had the reigning DPOY in Jackson ( who lead the NBA in blocked shots) challenging the shot. That's why he missed a dunk. Thats why you hold the ball, take time off the clock until they foul. They had virtually the whole shot clock to use up

If the dunk wasn't wide open then Holiday should've have held the ball.

If you just hold the ball waiting for a foul the other team doesn't have to foul you, they could also steal the ball.

The dunk was contested ( which is why he missed it.) Mazzulla referenced Holiday's decision, " you either have to make the layup or you have to get fouled....that's just how it is."
He also said "sometimes you're pissed because you didn't deserve to win. And I didn't think we deserved to win the game."
It's pretty clear he calls Holiday out when he didnt have to. But the coach does that so everyone knows what to do going forward. Good for him. This team has a history of doing wrong things at the end of games that they're starting to climb out of.

[JaMarco]

It wasn't wide open. You had the reigning DPOY in Jackson ( who lead the NBA in blocked shots) challenging the shot. That's why he missed a dunk. Thats why you hold the ball, take time off the clock until they foul. They had virtually the whole shot clock to use up

If the dunk wasn't wide open then Holiday should've have held the ball.

If you just hold the ball waiting for a foul the other team doesn't have to foul you, they could also steal the ball.

The dunk was contested ( which is why he missed it.) Mazzulla referenced Holiday's decision, " you either have to make the layup or you have to get fouled....that's just how it is."
He also said "sometimes you're pissed because you didn't deserve to win. And I didn't think we deserved to win the game."
It's pretty clear he calls Holiday out when he didnt have to. But the coach does that so everyone knows what to do going forward. Good for him. This team has a history of doing wrong things at the end of games that they're starting to climb out of.

The point is Tatum made the right play making the pass to Holiday. Tatum holding the ball trapped in that corner against 2 players is a turnover waiting to happen. They won't try to foul Tatum there, they would try to strip the ball or hold the ball for a jump ball (because there was enough time left and down only 1 score). I don't disagree that once Holiday had the ball maybe he shouldn't have tried to rush a dunk and just held the ball continuing to play keep away and run the clock down.

[celtxman]

If the dunk wasn't wide open then Holiday should've have held the ball.

If you just hold the ball waiting for a foul the other team doesn't have to foul you, they could also steal the ball.

The dunk was contested ( which is why he missed it.) Mazzulla referenced Holiday's decision, " you either have to make the layup or you have to get fouled....that's just how it is."
He also said "sometimes you're pissed because you didn't deserve to win. And I didn't think we deserved to win the game."
It's pretty clear he calls Holiday out when he didnt have to. But the coach does that so everyone knows what to do going forward. Good for him. This team has a history of doing wrong things at the end of games that they're starting to climb out of.

The point is Tatum made the right play making the pass to Holiday. Tatum holding the ball trapped in that corner against 2 players is a turnover waiting to happen. They won't try to foul Tatum there, they would try to strip the ball or hold the ball for a jump ball (because there was enough time left and down only 1 score). I don't disagree that once Holiday had the ball maybe he shouldn't have tried to rush a dunk and just held the ball continuing to play keep away and run the clock down.

Yes....keep the ball moving. Or even if they tried to trap Tatum call a timeout rather than throw a bad pass. Don't lose the game on bad decisions

[bucknersrevenge]

The dunk was contested ( which is why he missed it.) Mazzulla referenced Holiday's decision, " you either have to make the layup or you have to get fouled....that's just how it is."
He also said "sometimes you're pissed because you didn't deserve to win. And I didn't think we deserved to win the game."
It's pretty clear he calls Holiday out when he didnt have to. But the coach does that so everyone knows what to do going forward. Good for him. This team has a history of doing wrong things at the end of games that they're starting to climb out of.

The point is Tatum made the right play making the pass to Holiday. Tatum holding the ball trapped in that corner against 2 players is a turnover waiting to happen. They won't try to foul Tatum there, they would try to strip the ball or hold the ball for a jump ball (because there was enough time left and down only 1 score). I don't disagree that once Holiday had the ball maybe he shouldn't have tried to rush a dunk and just held the ball continuing to play keep away and run the clock down.

Yes....keep the ball moving. Or even if they tried to trap Tatum call a timeout rather than throw a bad pass. Don't lose the game on bad decisions

Or...HOLD the ball. Get fouled. Make your free throws and ice the game. Why our best player would not be cognizant of time and situation there is beyond me.

[shackles10]

The point is Tatum made the right play making the pass to Holiday. Tatum holding the ball trapped in that corner against 2 players is a turnover waiting to happen. They won't try to foul Tatum there, they would try to strip the ball or hold the ball for a jump ball (because there was enough time left and down only 1 score). I don't disagree that once Holiday had the ball maybe he shouldn't have tried to rush a dunk and just held the ball continuing to play keep away and run the clock down.

Yes....keep the ball moving. Or even if they tried to trap Tatum call a timeout rather than throw a bad pass. Don't lose the game on bad decisions

Or...HOLD the ball. Get fouled. Make your free throws and ice the game. Why our best player would not be cognizant of time and situation there is beyond me.

Not to keep harping on it, but I think yeah hold the ball and make your free throws is 1a. Sure they could try to steal but they're likely freaking out about the clock and foul out of instinct almost. 1b is pass to another open teammate and then they hold the ball/run out the clock and wait for a foul. I realize if he holds onto it that Jrue is no longer open for that same lane he was last night and that's ok. JB was open and guys would rotate out to the ball as well. 1c is call a timeout to avoid a turnover if no foul is occurring. Last year's team probably would have gotten that right (since we like to play that game of what they would have done) but it would have been because they were trying to run out the clock with still 5 minutes left.

[JaMarco]

The point is Tatum made the right play making the pass to Holiday. Tatum holding the ball trapped in that corner against 2 players is a turnover waiting to happen. They won't try to foul Tatum there, they would try to strip the ball or hold the ball for a jump ball (because there was enough time left and down only 1 score). I don't disagree that once Holiday had the ball maybe he shouldn't have tried to rush a dunk and just held the ball continuing to play keep away and run the clock down.

Yes....keep the ball moving. Or even if they tried to trap Tatum call a timeout rather than throw a bad pass. Don't lose the game on bad decisions

Or...HOLD the ball. Get fouled. Make your free throws and ice the game. Why our best player would not be cognizant of time and situation there is beyond me.

He was cognizant of the situation, was just trying to play to win and not "play not to lose" like you wanted him too.

[KillahGhostface]

Just a theory, but judging by the way Tatum flung the ball across the court when the game ended, I’m pretty sure he passed it because he was frustrated with the refs and didn’t think they’d call a foul if Memphis tried hard trapping him for the steal.

[Hal14]

Just a theory, but judging by the way Tatum flung the ball across the court when the game ended, I’m pretty sure he passed it because he was frustrated with the refs and didn’t think they’d call a foul if Memphis tried hard trapping him for the steal.

Yeah. And based on the way he flung it, it seemed like Tatum was fed up and wanted that game to just be over already.

Perhaps him and Jrue both felt that way. They were like "f these refs, we're playing like crap, let's just get this win and get the hell out of here" so the 2 of them locked eyes for a second, Jrue cut to the basket, tatum passed him the ball because the 2 of them were thinking that if Jrue makes that layup/dunk, then it's a 2 possession game so we'r basically ending the game right there - rather than getting fouled and extending the game and having it drag out longer.

Plus, when Jrue started cutting to the basket, JJJ was outside of the paint so he probably figured he'd have an easy layup. Or, if JJJ recovers really quickly and it's not an open layup, then you pull it back out. Or, JJJ helps on D but Porzingis cuts in so you could just throw a pass/lob to KP for the easy dunk to seal the win. Lots of good outcomes could have come from Jrue cutting and Tatum passing it to him there. And Tatum was double teamed so probably wanted to get rid of it. Although Memphis probably would have just fouled Tatum if he had just held onto the ball..

[shackles10]

Just a theory, but judging by the way Tatum flung the ball across the court when the game ended, I’m pretty sure he passed it because he was frustrated with the refs and didn’t think they’d call a foul if Memphis tried hard trapping him for the steal.

Kind of surprised they didn't call a foul on Zinger tbh

[pac213up]

These types of games happen during an 82 games season. Just need to find a way to win and they did.

[sam_I_am]

Tatum has been pretty mediocre for 3 games in a row now by his standards. Hopefully we are not seeing a pattern we have seen all too often with Tatum the past 3 years. He has a tendency to have lapses in focus, and more than other MVP candidate has games where he seems disinterested in dominating the way he is capable. That inconsistency is the main reason why NBA fans outside of Boston don’t take him as seriously for MVP despite all the deep playoff runs.