Celtics @ Wizards Gamethread - Saturday, January 12th

[wigglestrue]

77-5, baby!

[doclinkin]

on the topic of gilbert, i really like the dude and his blog and he seems like a genuinely good person. but on the court he is a shoot-first PG, and i don't think that's a winning kind of player. i for one haven't been hugely surprised that the Wiz has looked a lot better since Gilbert went out. that team has a lot of talent, but with gilbert hogging the ball it hasn't had the chance to come to the fore.

And to talk to the 'hogging the ball' comment:

Players benefit by Gil's presence, or at the least aren't hurt by it. Notice that every year he has one or more all-stars playing next to him, and multiple 20ppg scorers in the line-up. Notice too a guy like Larry Hughes who put-up all-star numbers playing on Gil's wing (despite the usual run of LBoogie's patented injuries) can manage nothing like the same efficiency even playing next to a great passing superstar like LeBron.

Fact is the attention that Gil draws on defense makes players next to him more efficient, the fact that he forces fouls (especially inside, attacking the rim) softens opponent frontcourt defenses late-game. And, when healthy, he averages more assists per 40 than many starting PG's. Suffice to say I think the citizens of Wizfandom will be just 'fine' with Gil's return.

BUt yeah sometimes he'll do something stupid like piss-off KG and predict a win just to motivate himself.

Other than that, I'd say trust your instincts and stop at: 'I really like the dude'. He's a rare thing in pro-sports, a baller and fanboy all in one. If he wasn't a hypertalent he'd be sitting around in his underpants typing his theories on B-ball on some fan site same as any of the rest of us. He's the people's champ. Or anyway, the proverbial 'peoples who live in their mom's basement and spent all day typing about basketball' s uh, champ.

[ParticleMan]

yeah, yeah, the stats are all great. they were great for marbury for years too. and tim hardaway. kenny anderson. lots of shoot-first PGs. points, assists, you name it. except for winning anything significant.

as for Gil not being a PG, a PG to me is the guy who handles the ball the majority of time on offense. it doesn't matter what your coach calls you. now that's not gilbert?

i wish gil all the best. i don't mind his win guarantees and all that, it's all in good fun. like i said, i like the guy, he's definitely likeable and good for the NBA. i just think his style of play is not one conducive to winning. maybe he'll prove me wrong someday, but he's got a lot of history against him.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Where doc, miller, W. Unseld, and I all agree is Gilbert isn't selfish and that the offense is much better with him. Guys have had career years with him. Just ask Larry Hughes and DeShawn Stevenson.

I have no doubt the offense gets better with Gilbert on the Wizards.

OTOH I love the way the team plays without him. I agree with Particle that shoot first PGs don't get others involved. That affects defense a lot. And that Gil didn't help on defense in the past makes concern for the future. I could see an Arenas/Brand or Gasol swap making sense.

However, until I see otherwise, I believe Gil will make a competitive Wizards team extremely dangerous if/when he comes back.

I have mention Wizards and championship in tthreads before and I've said in the past that Washington had the roster to beat Boston. Boston's got a small window of about a year or two, and they better hope Arenas doesn't do like Billups and grow as a player.

I think Washington's top-to-bottom among the most talented teams in the league. Blatche, Pecherov, Young and DCs big three is a bunch. Grunfeld didn't do a megadeal like Ainge, but he's got some talent on the roster. He's also assembled solid role players like Stevenson, Daniels, and at times Songaila.

Boston is the team of right now, but they better win it this year or next.

[celticfan42487]

trading Areneas for Gasol would be great. But face it no one's going to take Areneas unless their going to build around him.

And MEM has a better combination in Conley + Gay. Those kids are great.

I guess theoretically WAS has teh personall to beat BOS in a 7 game series. But that will come down to injuries. If BOS has no Rondo and no Pollard, then it will be a hell of a series. If they have both of them it will be a close 5/6game series with WAS's pressure nullified by Rondo's speed and any lowpost offense nullified by having 6 fouls with Pollard and Perk to keep Haywood ineffective.

The point is, you're not going to win in the playoffs as a jumpshooting team. And Areneas is by far your best penetrator so he's going to keep the ball in his hands and play 1 on 5 too many times. With Gasol on the other hand though you become an inside out team, and with mid to close range shots you drastically reduce the chances for easy baskets on the fast break agaisnt yeah.

Look at DET, when they care they go downlow to Sheed or make pin point pass off of picks, keeping the ball away from one on one stuff or long range crap that leads to opposing fast breaks. When they don't they chuck a ball and get blown out by NY by 30ish points.

[doclinkin]

yeah, yeah, the stats are all great. [...] except for winning anything significant.
...
i wish gil all the best. i don't mind his win guarantees and all that, it's all in good fun. like i said, i like the guy, he's definitely likeable and good for the NBA. i just think his style of play is not one conducive to winning. maybe he'll prove me wrong someday, but he's got a lot of history against him.

Ah I see, you're going for the tried and true 'yeah yeah' defense, a bit of the old 'facts, schmacts' argument coupled with a smattering of the 'everybody knows' pseudohistory.

Okay, so you seem to think the Wiz are more likely to win a championship without Gilbert than with him. Nice to see your appreciation for the Wiz' team but: Whatever. (The 'whatever deflection' being the classic counter to the fact-immune). But that's not whatcha said, particledude:

i for one haven't been hugely surprised that the Wiz has looked a lot better since Gilbert went out. that team has a lot of talent, but with gilbert hogging the ball it hasn't had the chance to come to the fore.

So, before I move on to your new argument, no man: Caron scored 19ppg last year, this year he scores 21. Antawn scored 19ppg last year, this year: 21. The team has been scoring fewer points this year than last year. Pretty simple to figure out, Gil bringing the ball upcourt is not the problem. The team is putting up just about as many shots as last year. We just don't have Gil's 29 points. What we do have is a slightly improved bench. And more production from our center. And better defense.

Caron is better, but mostly because he's improved his 3pt shot. BUt check his career stats, Caron has improved some aspect of his game his every year he's been in the league. That's just what he does.

But really, no #1 option PG has won anything significant? Putting the Wizards aside (who were leading the EC by all-star cut-off last year before their string of nasty injuries) a guy named Zeke won a championship a few times as the first-option top scorer on his team. Clutch, game winner, occasionally carried his team by himself.

Much as Gil did in our 1st round win vs CHI a few years back.

Personally I think the Wiz are a fair piece away from 'significant' (Championship) contention, even with Gil back on court. This year. Even if he was at full strength. And it's likely chemistry will suffer somewhat while he rediscovers his game and the team re-integrates his skillset. But that would happen with any player who was out for what amounts to a year and then rejoined the team late season. By then the Kelts will have ironed out some chemistry kinks of their won (scary to consider in a 35-win team at season mid-point). Detroit is still nasty. LeBron is LeBron.

But you never know, we could surprise a team if we can keep our heads above water and maintain a+.500 record and sneak into the playoffs. And if we get Gil back at any sort of strength.

But better without Gil? No. Don't fool yourself. We've just had an easy schedule up to now, and have a gritty team learning to play defense when the shots won't fall. Something that can only help us when we regain Gil and his ball-hawking steals, and go-to scoring ability to jump-start the scoring again.

[newslowsad]

Good luck in part two tonight, I know you guys will be ready.