Doc Rivers

Post #21 » by **UGA Hayes** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:51 am

darrendaye wrote:Until Baby is able to consistantly hit the elbow jumper, I don't see how he can manage for long stretches as a PF. Particularly in a game versus a big-time shot blocker. Howard was leaving Perk and Powe to attempt to swat anything going at the rim. I believe it would have been just more of the same with Baby in there at PF and without the outside shot, would have been a non-factor in scoring and just clogged the middle and reduced the number of penetrations that Rondo and Pierce were able to produce against a more spread defense. Things don't improve dramatically when Howard sits and Foyle comes in.

Just my take, but does seem to be shared in spirit at least by a few others. Regardless, I don't think a reasonable person can call Doc to the carpet on the decision even if they felt there may have been a matchup available in which to take advantage. Because Howard would at least somewhat mitigate that advantage to some degree. And, again, I'll stress the compromise on the defense you'd be making.

I don't know. Sometimes I think this is overthinking on Doc's part even if didn't really affect this game. I'm not a huge fan of the thinking that says well Scal is a better guy to guard Posey, his other flaws be damned. I'd prefer the approach that says maybe BBD can't guard Lewis but Lewis won't be able to guard BBD. I feel like everytime we bring in Scal we are conceding the advantage to the other team.

Post #22 » by **darrendaye** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:03 am

UGA Hayes wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

I don't know. Sometimes I think this is overthinking on Doc's part even if didn't really affect this game. I'm not a huge fan of the thinking that says well Scal is a better guy to guard Posey, his other flaws be damned. I'd prefer the approach that says maybe BBD can't guard Lewis but Lewis won't be able to guard BBD. I feel like everytime we bring in Scal we are conceding the advantage to the other team.

You may be right, I'm not going to dig my heals in here, but I do disagree, When I play the scenario through in my head, I see Howard able to disrupt two big men anchored in the post or when Perk or Powe move to the top of the key in an effort to free Baby, Orlando simply let's em park there and Howard switches to Baby in that situation. I don't see it as a strong tactic in the offenses favor and a compromise on the defensive end.

Red2 · Post #23 » by **Red2** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:23 am

scal did a decent job on lewis in the first half but sucked in the 2nd. He HAS to take take layup attempt. kicking out to House was the wrong move. there isn't a player I like less than Scal. he and pollard are wasted space on this team. I agree doc had his head up his A tonight. not playing Perk or big baby in this game was dumb. I give him credit for sticking with ray who sucked all game until the 4th. I thought he should have switched posey onto turkolu at the end. lewis was having a bad game and turkolu was going to take the shot. no offense to pierce but he couldn't stop the turk tonight

Rocky5000 · Post #24 » by **Rocky5000** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:53 am

Baby could have played this game. Pierce and Glen have a lot of chemistry and Paul is able to get BBD a lot of open looks around the hoop. All the kid needs to do is finish, and he's getting pretty good at that. I don't understand why Pollard didn't play, he did a very good job in the other games versus Orlando. Could his ankle still be bothering him? If he's not going to play in games like these, he should just leave the team.

Now for question that might need another thread to discuss.
Was holding KG out a good move? I happen to think that he could have played 20 minutes and it would have made a big enough difference in this game to get a W. He didn't even come out of the locker room to support the team, and I wonder if he lost some of his admiration for Doc or was angry at him. If KG thinks he's good enough to go, who knows better than him? The magic are top-flight competition in the east and it's important to send a message to them, even if it's only a regular season game. Is creating a possible rift between KG and the coach, throwing off team chemistry, creating doubt in the minds of our players, and giving confidence to the Magic worth holding KG out of the game?

BrokenLeftyJumper · Post #25 » by **BrokenLeftyJumper** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:10 am

scal did a decent job on lewis in the first half but sucked in the 2nd. He HAS to take take layup attempt. kicking out to House was the wrong move. there isn't a player I like less than Scal. he and pollard are wasted space on this team.

Lewis had 8 points in the first half, 7 in the second. Scal did a pretty good job on him when he was out there. How did he suck in the 2nd? You want to judge his entire second half performance on one play is what it sounds like.

I agree doc had his head up his A tonight. not playing Perk or big baby in this game was dumb.

Because what? Powe did a good job on Howard. What difference would Perk have made? Powe finished pretty much just as many plays around the hoop that Perk generally does.

I give him credit for sticking with ray who sucked all game until the 4th.

But it would be a further example of Doc coaching with his head up his ass if Ray hadn't played better in the 4th right? So it sounds like your saying if the player plays well "good move" and if the player doesn't play well then "stupid move by Doc." You act like coaches are equipped with a crystal ball or something.

I thought he should have switched posey onto turkolu at the end. lewis was having a bad game and turkolu was going to take the shot. no offense to pierce but he couldn't stop the turk tonight

Pierce was playing pretty damn good defense. Sometimes great offense beats great defense. Posey wouldn't have made a cent of difference on the shots Turkeglou was hitting.

MaxwellSmart · Post #26 » by **MaxwellSmart** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:34 am

Maybe Doc played Scal and Powe so much to see what he has with these guys and/or to show Danny we need some help....games like these(without KG) are the only time he gets to play them big minutes.

rushless · Post #27 » by **rushless** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:09 am

I seriously think Doc makes this team worse. The first month or two everything was clicking because we have a nice group of players that knows how to play. Now the more Doc coaches, the less they seem to know what to do on the court. Rondo has been REGRESSING if anyone has noticed. So is our offensive game.

And of course the guy has never been a good in-game coach. We blew out teams earlier in the season so he was not tested at all.

hiphop1 · Post #28 » by **hiphop1** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:33 pm

Doc is a good coach. Look at our record. We shti on him when we were loosing with the youth but now he demands credit. The team has gelled tremendously very wuickly. And I garuntee that Doc had a major part in that. And that call in the fourth quarter when we came out of a timeout with like 1:49 left that pass to Pierce then to Perk who got fouled was a great call out of a break.

l2RDO · Post #29 » by **l2RDO** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:36 pm

Quote:
I thought he should have switched posey onto turkolu at the end. lewis was having a bad game and turkolu was going to take the shot. no offense to pierce but he couldn't stop the turk tonight

Quote:
Pierce was playing pretty damn good defense. Sometimes great offense beats great defense. Posey wouldn't have made a cent of difference on the shots Turkeglou was hitting.

I dont know if anyone noticed, but on the last play when Turk went to drive, Pierce turned his whole body to run alongside him instead of sidestepping with him. He seems to do that alot when hes one on one. Pierce just seems to lack the lateral quickness to guard an ISO player, which means he shouldnt be guarding the ball at the end of games.

That being said, Turk hit an incredibly lucky shot to win the game. Turk is slower than Pierce.

DorfonCeltics · Post #30 » by **DorfonCeltics** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:54 pm

It's threads like this that make me sick. Doc didn't lose this game for us tonight. We were playing the 3rd best team in the East, on the road, without our MVP caliber power forward. We shouldn't win this game under any circumstance but we almost did. I think Doc is the reason why we almost won. Big Baby is not a fit against a team like Orlando who has a quick 6'10" power forward. Powe did a fantastic job against Dwight who is almost 6 inches taller than Leon.

One thing I'd like to bring up that nobody has touched upon is why Powe is getting minutes over Baby right now. Anybody think that Doc/Danny are trying to showcase Powe for a trade? Maybe Powe, EHouse, Scal, and a 2nd rounder for Cassell?

Post #31 » by **darrendaye** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:05 pm

DorfonCeltics wrote:
One thing I'd like to bring up that nobody has touched upon is why Powe is getting minutes over Baby right now. Anybody think that Doc/Danny are trying to showcase Powe for a trade? Maybe Powe, EHouse, Scal, and a 2nd rounder for Cassell?

It's possible that he's being showcased, though I don't know about the trade you proposed. At the same time, the reality is that the Celts are using two PFs (Baby/Powe) to play center. Before seeing him in action, I brussled at the idea of Baby taking the constant pounding that's required to keep pushing and fighting with legit centers at this level, particularly being in a position where the opposition has a great length advantage. Powe has generally been raw intensity and determination in showing a willingness to fight in the box. While I once believed Powe would do it better than Baby, I don't believe it now to a great degree at least. However, this recent surge in playing time for Powe and reduction for Baby may simply be a matter of recuperation for a tough task thus far pretty well done for Baby and a desire to keep the momentum by bringing in someone fresh who has an eagerness to perform the same chore.

thejackram · Post #32 » by **thejackram** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:14 pm

darrendaye wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

It's possible that he's being showcased, though I don't know about the trade you proposed. At the same time, the reality is that the Celts are using two PFs (Baby/Powe) to play center. Before seeing him in action, I brussled at the idea of Baby taking the constant pounding that's required to keep pushing and fighting with legit centers at this level, particularly being in a position where the opposition has a great length advantage. Powe has generally been raw intensity and determination in showing a willingness to fight in the box. While I once believed Powe would do it better than Baby, I don't believe it now to a great degree at least. However, this recent surge in playing time for Powe and reduction for Baby may simply be a matter of recuperation for a tough task thus far pretty well done for Baby and a desire to keep the momentum by bringing in someone fresh who has an eagerness to perform the same chore.

it is a possibility that they are showcasing him for a trade...but over the last couple of games powe has had solid games. I mean, hes avg. 14.4 minutes over the last 5 games (only game he didnt get double digit minutes was toronto) as well as averaging 6 ppg and 4 boards....but his physical prescence on the defensive end has been shown lately. For example, during the orlando game he physically kept dwight outta the paint at times forcing him to shoot and usually miss 10 foot bank shots...powe would be a solid trade tool if combined with a guard. Im not sure who we could combine him with for a good trade but we obv need a backup pg and hopefully if possible a decent big in return..chances are unlikely though

cisco · Post #33 » by **cisco** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:29 pm

DorfonCeltics wrote:It's threads like this that make me sick. Doc didn't lose this game for us tonight. We were playing the 3rd best team in the East, on the road, without our MVP caliber power forward. We shouldn't win this game under any circumstance but we almost did. I think Doc is the reason why we almost won. Big Baby is not a fit against a team like Orlando who has a quick 6'10" power forward. Powe did a fantastic job against Dwight who is almost 6 inches taller than Leon.

One thing I'd like to bring up that nobody has touched upon is why Powe is getting minutes over Baby right now. Anybody think that Doc/Danny are trying to showcase Powe for a trade? Maybe Powe, EHouse, Scal, and a 2nd rounder for Cassell?

Doc was partially responsible for the loss. His poor decisionmaking had a huge part in the loss. Starting Scal? LOL Scal did play decent defense, but gave absolutely nothing on the other end. I think Baby could have gotten more than 1 rebound and 1 point and play just as good defense. Where was Perk or Powe in the 2nd half when the C's were getting killed on the glass with all the offensive rebounding by the Magic? You don't think Doc had a hand in making those decisions? :roll:

BrokenLeftyJumper · Post #34 » by **BrokenLeftyJumper** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:20 pm

Doc was partially responsible for the loss. His poor decisionmaking had a huge part in the loss. Starting Scal? LOL Scal did play decent defense, but gave absolutely nothing on the other end. I think Baby could have gotten more than 1 rebound and 1 point and play just as good defense. Where was Perk or Powe in the 2nd half when the C's were getting killed on the glass with all the offensive rebounding by the Magic? You don't think Doc had a hand in making those decisions?

When where the C's getting killed on the offensive glass? The Magic got one more offensive rebound than the C's and only 5 or 6 in the second half when by your math they "killed the C's on the glass." And Powe played almost the entire second half. Perk played the first half of the third quarter and then Powe came in and played until the game was almost over. I would suggest you get your facts straight before you try to rip Doc.

And I think the main reason Doc didn't play Davis is because of defense, asking a rookie with a propensity to pick of cheap fouls to guard Rashard Lewis would have been asking a lot. And putting Davis next to Perk on offense doesn't make too much sense because Howard can sit in the middle of the defense and cover both of them. Scal is at least somewhat of a threat from the outside.

reggielewis · Post #35 » by **reggielewis** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:23 pm

i think doc does his fair share of "dumb calls" but overall he is not a bad coach. I mean how many teams get down 15-16 pts and all the sudden it swells to 20-25 and they give up? This team does not give up and that is Doc's doing imo.
Also regarding Rondo, i think he has improved. he has games where his brain farts for 48 min but Doc usually yanks him. But in the beginning of the season Rondo did not set up the final play closing out a quarter or a half and take the ball to the hole. Now he does that with no qualms, and even if he doesnt make it, thats what a pg is supposed to do when the clock is running down. Rondo used to just give the ball to PP or Ray and run to the opposite side. Thats Doc's doing.
Secondly, Rondo is going north/south much more than in the beginning of the yr. He is not dribbling east/west as much which again is Doc's influence.
Last but not least he is finally starting to penetrate and create. He still needs to get more comfortable with it but he is getting better at it and gaining tons of confidence doing it. how many of us thought his game would be primarily giving the ball up to KG, PP or Ray and allowing them to be the pg? It still happens but not as much as Rondo is much more vocal now. U can hear him shouting on the tr directing traffic and that is Doc's doing too.

Post #36 » by **UGA Hayes** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:37 pm

reggielewis wrote:i think doc does his fair share of "dumb calls" but overall he is not a bad coach. I mean how many teams get down 15-16 pts and all the sudden it swells to 20-25 and they give up? This team does not give up and that is Doc's doing imo.
Also regarding Rondo, i think he has improved. he has games where his brain farts for 48 min but Doc usually yanks him. But in the beginning of the season Rondo did not set up the final play closing out a quarter or a half and take the ball to the hole. Now he does that with no qualms, and even if he doesnt make it, thats what a pg is supposed to do when the clock is running down. Rondo used to just give the ball to PP or Ray and run to the opposite side. Thats Doc's doing.
Secondly, Rondo is going north/south much more than in the beginning of the yr. He is not dribbling east/west as much which again is Doc's influence.
Last but not least he is finally starting to penetrate and create. He still needs to get more comfortable with it but he is getting better at it and gaining tons of confidence doing it. how many of us thought his game would be primarily giving the ball up to KG, PP or Ray and allowing them to be the pg? It still happens but not as much as Rondo is much more vocal now. U can hear him shouting on the tr directing traffic and that is Doc's doing too.

Great, great post. A lot of people are criticizing Rondo, but I think they are letting the missed shots cloud that he is getting much better at when to call his own number and when to call someone else. I think is much more important in the long run than any struggles he is having right now.

The Rondo Show · Post #37 » by **The Rondo Show** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:47 pm

cisco wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Doc was partially responsible for the loss. His poor decisionmaking had a huge part in the loss. Starting Scal? LOL Scal did play decent defense, but gave absolutely nothing on the other end. I think Baby could have gotten more than 1 rebound and 1 point and play just as good defense. Where was Perk or Powe in the 2nd half when the C's were getting killed on the glass with all the offensive rebounding by the Magic? You don't think Doc had a hand in making those decisions?

If you think Baby could've played just as good D against Rashard Lewis then I think it's your decision making that needs questioning instead of Doc's. Lewis would hang out around the 3 point line and if Big Baby didn't come out to contest, he'd drill a 3. If he did, Lewis would blow right by him. That's an awful matchup for him.

There might be an argument for Baby over Powe and having BDD cover Howard as a backup C, but with the way Powe played...I strongly disagree. But there's no way in hell Big Baby should've started over Scal; those minutes at the 4 rightfully went to Scal and Posey.

I can't believe someone seriously suggested putting Davis at the 4 and having him cover Rashard Lewis (or cover Hedo Turkoglu as the other option, an equally ridiculous matchup). I'm a huge Big Baby fan, and want him to get more playing time, but yesterday was not the day for that.