leon powe

[ddb]

The Kings are more intereted in dealing bibby then dealing Beno. Bibby to Cleveland is still alive.. we wouldn't be able to get beno straight up for Powe.

cassell is the guy boston wants and will get. right now its just a matter of Ainge feeling out the situation. if he hears from his sources that cassell will ask for a buyout then ainge will wait. if he feels its worth trading for cassel then he will explore that....if he doesn't see a scenerio with cassell coming to boston then he will switch gears and bring in damon

[MVP16]

I don't see how Powe is being showcased. He was just given a chance and has been playing well so he is being given minutes. Powe and Big Baby will probably alternate depending on matchups this season...but next season I think they could from a pretty good front court duo off the bench with Baby having a finesse game and Powe having a power game...and they're extremely cheap as well.

[goulardi]

Let's make one thing clear - your full of it. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that two undersized PF's will be playing for the same slot in the rotation. Yes Davis and Powe are fighting for the same rotation minutes. Just deal with it..

Pete

I know you think you're making some kind of point but if there are more than 5 guys on the team then yes, there is fighting for minutes. However, it is a valid point to say that not all players bring the same things and there is value in different match ups.
Deal with it.

[sully00]

I don't see how Powe is being showcased. He was just given a chance and has been playing well so he is being given minutes. Powe and Big Baby will probably alternate depending on matchups this season...but next season I think they could from a pretty good front court duo off the bench with Baby having a finesse game and Powe having a power game...and they're extremely cheap as well.

Really, then explain to my Scal is all of a sudden playing. Look Pollard isn't hurt, and while Posey has been in and out can you really tell me that it made more sense to start Scal over Posey against ORL.

Look Powe is continuing to get mins because he has played well, that doesn't mean that the idea behind it isn't to increase his value for this specific trade or anyother deal.

The Clippers are at a crossroads, this season is lost, but they have to decide whether to retool this squad around Brand and try and contend or to blow it up. While Scal is tits on a bull to anyone at the kind of money he is making you probably can't get players like Tony and Leon on the FA market for the money they are making. Instead of draft picks you get some young guys with experience that can help you next season at positions of need.

[MVP16]

-= original quote snipped =-



Really, then explain to my Scal is all of a sudden playing.

Look Pollard isn't hurt, and while Posey has been in and out can you really tell me that it made more sense to start Scal over Posey against ORL.

How do you know Pollard isn't hurt? Is he part of a conspiracy to fake an injury? Did you inspect his ankle?

And as to why Scalabrine is playing, he probably has some compromising pictures of Doc Rivers.

But really, Scal hasn't been playing that much lately. Doc wanted to matchup with Orlando's outside shooters so he chose between Scal and Posey. He probably started Scal because he wanted Posey's offense off the bench and hide Scal in the starting line-up. Plus Posey's hasn't played in a week so he probably wasn't in good enough shape to play too many minutes.

Look Powe is continuing to get mins because he has played well, that doesn't mean that the idea behind it isn't to increase his value for this specific trade or anyother deal.

Player plays well. He gets more minutes. How does one ascertain that he is being showcased? The Celtics have too much at stake to showcase a player and possibly losing the 1st spot to Detroit.

The Clippers are at a crossroads, this season is lost, but they have to decide whether to retool this squad around Brand and try and contend or to blow it up. While Scal is tits on a bull to anyone at the kind of money he is making you probably can't get players like Tony and Leon on the FA market for the money they are making. Instead of draft picks you get some young guys with experience that can help you next season at positions of need.

Tony is going to be an FA this off season so they can go after him if they want. Players like Powe (undersized pfs who can contribute but drop too far because of the fact that they are undersized) are available pretty much in every draft in the 2nd round.

Lastly, I wouldn't trade Scal+Tony+Powe to Cassell. TA is our only backup sg and trading him would leave us too skinny at that position...especially figuring that Ray has already missed a few games this season. I would rather just sign Stoudamire and keep those 3 players.

[BrokenLeftyJumper]

you probably can't get players like Tony and Leon on the FA market for the money they are making.

I would argue that you could get players like Tony and Leon from the D-League. I like both players, Tony brings the attack mode of the bench and Powe is a grown ass man out there on the court. But to think that other teams are gonna give anything of real value for these two is a little delusional IMO. You could get a similar player to Tony or Powe, maybe a little less polished, from the D-League. Is Tony Allen that much better than Keith Langford? Is Leon Powe that much better than Elton Brown? I would argue there is nothing but a slight difference between those players. To other teams, these guys don't have much more value than a D-League player. On the other hand, the Celtics drafted these players and have incorporated them into their system, so I would believe Powe and Tony have more value to the C's than they would to any other team in the league. That's why I don't think its likely to see them go if we are receiving anything of value back.

[sully00]

If Leon isn't being showcased why wasn't he given this opportunity 3 months ago? Pay attention, Leon hasn't really changed much he is the same guy, rebounds like a monster, plays good defense, but struggles offensively because he is giving up about a half a foot.

BrookenLeftyJumper

I completely disagree about your assessment of Allen and Powe. They are just role players but the leap from effective role player and d-league players is huge. Tony Allen is actually an effective NBA starter, you need to check your evaluation system. The Boston Celtics went decades trying to find a 3rd offensive option that could score 10 ppg in a starting role, that Tony Allen can do.

Maggette is a FA, have you looked at who the backup guards are for the Clippers?

Leon Powe is Reggie Evans, NBA All Star certainly not but to compare him to guys that can't even make the league is a stretch against the level of competition you are talking about these two guys dominate going half speed.

[MVP16]

If Leon isn't being showcased why wasn't he given this opportunity 3 months ago? Pay attention, Leon hasn't really changed much he is the same guy, rebounds like a monster, plays good defense, but struggles offensively because he is giving up about a half a foot.

Because Leon sucked during the pre season where he absolutely couldn't finish around the hoop and, as a result, Big Baby beat him out for the position. Big Baby kept playing well so he stayed in front of Powe. Scalabrine and Pollard are going to get minutes anyway because they are veterans and provide different aspects from Powe/Big Baby...so usually it's either Powe or Big Baby in a game.

Lately, for a few games, we got absolutely spanked on the boards. Leon Powe is a very good rebounder so Doc Rivers tried him out if he could solve some of our rebounding problems. Given the opportunity, Leon played well and earned minutes.

[BrokenLeftyJumper]

I completely disagree about your assessment of Allen and Powe. They are just role players but the leap from effective role player and d-league players is huge. Tony Allen is actually an effective NBA starter, you need to check your evaluation system. The Boston Celtics went decades trying to find a 3rd offensive option that could score 10 ppg in a starting role, that Tony Allen can do.

Maggette is a FA, have you looked at who the backup guards are for the Clippers?

Leon Powe is Reggie Evans, NBA All Star certainly not but to compare him to guys that can't even make the league is a stretch against the level of competition you are talking about these two guys dominate going half speed.

I disagree with your first statement that "the leap from d-league player to effective role player is huge." IMO, the difference between role players sitting on an NBA bench and a very good D-League player is not skills, talents, or bball intelligence. Take the all-star 10th men of the NBA and match them up against the all-stars of the NBDL in an open gym, without NBA officials and everybody wearing masks, and I think you wouldn't be able to tell which team was which. I think the real difference that makes guys like Tony Allen and Powe more valuable is the fact teams have invested money into them, they probably understand the NBA game more, they have an established role on the team, and they don't get picked on by the officials like an NBDL rook might. Look at Jamario Moon for instance. D-League bozo to NBA ROY candidate. Did he really work on his game over the summer or something? Probably not. He just finally caught a lucky break, a team picked him up, asked him to do things he could do, and were patient with him.

And I really like Tony, but calling him an effective NBA starter is a big-time stretch. He's not a starter, he's actually like the 8th man, so I don't know how you can make that claim. It's not like the C's spent decades trying to find that third option who can score 10ppg and Tony Allen has been the cure to their woes, it's more like that position is so easy to fill that teams generally don't commit to one guy serving that role for a long period of time. Maggette might be a FA, but I guarantee the Clippers aren't drooling over the possibility of filling that void with TA. There are plenty of other options out there, and Tony is probably pretty far down the priority list in that regard.

[Rocky5000]

Sacramento is not going to trade Udrih, they're going to trade Bibby since Udrih played so well in his absence. They are also likely to trade Artest and go 100% into rebuilding around Martin.

About Tony, Tony Allen now is not an NBA starter. Tony Allen of last January is an NBA starter. We're going to have to wait and see what we have with the kid before we ship him off for pennies on the dollar. He is a great defender and excellent insurance if Ray's health and shooting problems persist. Who'd you rather have as our starting SG, Eddie House or TA?

Anyone else angry that we didn't give C-Webb at least a second glance? I don't think that GS was very high on his list of destinations.

[elrod enchilada]

I just read through this thread and have enjoyed it.

I am a fan of both Grown Man and Big Baby, and have been since they started playing with the Cs.

I pretty much agree with Bill from Boston's analysis, as usual. (I feel like Clarence Thomas to Scalia.) Both Leon and Big Baby are legit prospects, with the potential for solid careers. Baby has a chance to be a quality starter if he gets his face-up game together. He has some amazing hands and feet and instincts for the game. And he demonstrated a nice shooting touch at LSU.

I am probably a bit higher on Leon than BfB. I think he can be a starting 4 in the NBA and possibly a decent one, though he is more likely a fine rotation player off the bench. He has to improve on defense and he has to develop a shot. He is not as smooth as Big Baby, but he can create havoc offensively. He has got to make his free throws.

And for a majority of teams, I theink Leon and BB are fien ats th eback-ups for Perk and KG.

[sully00]

Just so we are clear Tony Allen over his 4 seasons has avg 7.5, 13, 16.5, 10 ppg as a starter. While certainly not an 82 game sample it obviously shows something. Don't hide behind Keith Langford, name an actual NBA scrub.

For example Carlos Arroyo, presently starting for the Magic over his 7 year career has avg 6, 12.6 (started the whole season), 9.3, 11.6, 10 as a starter. Some years he didn't get a start at all.

Pruitt and Wallace were top talents in the D-League. Dwayne Jones avg 11 boards a game. While sure you can argue that the difference in talent level is small, that doesn't mean that the difference in ability is small.

But I guess Tony Allen is a D-Leaguer because he has to back up Paul Pierce and Ray Allen and play pg. Damn I wish we had Richie Frahm.

[BrokenLeftyJumper]

Here's the best evidence that would indicate Tony Allen is not an NBA starter: the fact that he has started 66 out of a possible 200 NBA games. He starts a little more than one out of every 4 games. Now, I don't know about you, but that would indicate to me that Tony Allen is not an NBA starter. You can say "well he plays behind Pierce and Ray" but he's also played on one worst team in the league (last year when he put up his 16 a game as a starter) and the other teams were all average to mediocre squads and he never started more than half the time for those teams.

Also, if you want to make it more fair, name me some teams that Tony would start for right now.

The only ones you could even make an argument for are probably:
Seattle and Minny (two of the worst teams in the league)
Philly

Since he wouldn't start except for maybe a few teams in the league, that would again indicate to me that he's not a starter.

Just so we are clear Tony Allen over his 4 seasons has avg 7.5, 13, 16.5, 10 ppg as a starter. While certainly not an 82 game sample it obviously shows something. Don't hide behind Keith Langford, name an actual NBA scrub.

Okay, how about Devin Brown, former D-Leaguer? Is Tony Allen really any better than Devin Brown? They do pretty much the same things on the court, except Tony is probably a little bit better at scoring and not so good at handling the ball. Would the C's give up anything of value for Devin Brown? Not so much. And for all the value you give Tony Allen for being able to score 10ppg as a starter, Devin Brown got picked up off waivers by the Hornets last year and averaged 12ppg last season as starter for almost 50 games. Whoopy. Does that give him any actual value to an NBA GM? Obviously not much, considering he didn't get picked up until the beginning of this season, signing a one year deal with the Cavs for chump change. I don't see why Tony Allen would be treated any differently.

For example Carlos Arroyo, presently starting for the Magic over his 7 year career has avg 6, 12.6 (started the whole season), 9.3, 11.6, 10 as a starter. Some years he didn't get a start at all.

I don't know what this proves. That Carlos Arroyo is a starter? Because he's only starting now because Nelson is hurt. And if you watched him play on Sunday, you must have realized he's pretty miserable. The guy has never been a legit starter besides one year with Utah. I guarantee you could find players just as good as Carlos Arroyo in the D-League.

But I guess Tony Allen is a D-Leaguer because he has to back up Paul Pierce and Ray Allen and play pg. Damn I wish we had Richie Frahm.

I'm not saying Tony Allen belongs in the D-League. I'm saying he has pretty much no value because you could sign a player from the NBDL to do the things he does in the NBA. Teams don't do this because it's just a horizontal move in most respects. But when you could replace a certain player with another guy very easily, that would indicate the guy probably has little to no value on the trade market. Hence, we aren't trading TA and Leon Powe for Sam Cassell.

[billfromBoston]

Here's the best evidence that would indicate Tony Allen is not an NBA starter: the fact that he has started 66 out of a possible 200 NBA games. He starts a little more than one out of every 4 games. Now, I don't know about you, but that would indicate to me that Tony Allen is not an NBA starter. You can say "well he plays behind Pierce and Ray" but he's also played on one worst team in the league (last year when he put up his 16 a game as a starter) and the other teams were all average to mediocre squads and he never started more than half the time for those teams.

Also, if you want to make it more fair, name me some teams that Tony would start for right now.

The only ones you could even make an argument for are probably:
Seattle and Minny (two of the worst teams in the league)
Philly

Since he wouldn't start except for maybe a few teams in the league, that would again indicate to me that he's not a starter.

Just so we are clear Tony Allen over his 4 seasons has avg 7.5, 13, 16.5, 10 ppg as a starter. While certainly not an 82 game sample it obviously shows something. Don't hide behind Keith Langford, name an actual NBA scrub.

Okay, how about Devin Brown, former D-Leaguer? Is Tony Allen really any better than Devin Brown? They do pretty much the same things on the court, except Tony is probably a little bit better at scoring and not so good at handling the ball. Would the C's give up anything of value for Devin Brown? Not so much. And for all the value you give Tony Allen for being able to score 10ppg as a starter, Devin Brown got picked up off waivers by the Hornets last year and averaged 12ppg last season as starter for almost 50 games. Whoopy. Does that give him any actual value to an NBA GM? Obviously not much, considering he didn't get picked up until the beginning of this season, signing a one year deal with the Cavs for chump change. I don't see why Tony Allen would be treated any differently.

For example Carlos Arroyo, presently starting for the Magic over his 7 year career has avg 6, 12.6 (started the whole season), 9.3, 11.6, 10 as a starter. Some years he didn't get a start at all.

I don't know what this proves. That Carlos Arroyo is a starter? Because he's only starting now because Nelson is hurt. And if you watched him play on Sunday, you must have realized he's pretty miserable. The guy has never been a legit starter besides one year with Utah. I guarantee you could find players just as good as Carlos Arroyo in the D-League.

But I guess Tony Allen is a D-Leaguer because he has to back up Paul Pierce and Ray Allen and play pg. Damn I wish we had Richie Frahm.

I'm not saying Tony Allen belongs in the D-League. I'm saying he has pretty much no value because you could sign a player from the NBDL to do the things he does in the NBA. Teams don't do this because it's just a horizontal move in most respects. But when you could replace a certain player with another guy very easily, that would indicate the guy probably has little to no value on the trade market. Hence, we aren't trading TA and Leon Powe for Sam Cassell.

....Sully/Lefty....

You guys both have valid elements to your point but your beginning to overstate your respective positions just to "win" the debate...

Tony Allen and Leon Powe are better than 90% of the players in the D-league, you can't just take "anybody" from the D-League and "give them a chance" and make them quality NBA role players...

The D-League was built to create NBA role players and some potential stars perhaps....not every player is ready for the league right out of college and the D-League provides a forum for these players to develop...opportunity also plays a part in this...there are many players in the NBA sitting on benches that could be more than they are if given the chance...

I think many intelligent fans of the NBA still fall for the premise that the good players play and those that "can't cut it" sit on the bench...the reality is that sometimes players just miss their window of opportunity...sometimes they get drafted by a team with too many players at their position..sometimes they're traded before they get the chance to play....sometimes injuries take away that window...

Tony Allen and Leon Powe have real NBA talent and both could probably be starters eventually on SOME NBA team...but like many other role players before them the opportunity and specific team dynamics of the club their on will play a part in that....

For Tony Allen, his play last year was star caliber for a stretch, not franchise good, but certainly top-3 on a team good...this had nothing to do with how bad the team was....but for most of Tony's career he's been on a team deep with wing talent...as a young player developing he's been able to get time, but his chance to shine didn't come until year 3 and then an injury halted that progress...now he may not regain his full form this season, go into free agency with less value, and get taken on a team that sees him just as a defensive backup...his whole career could change based off of that timeline and not his actual ability to perform...

Leon Powe is a similar player...he fell out of the 1st round because of his double knee surgery...he was a sure-fire late 1st before that, like Jason Maxiell or Paul Millsap before him...his height was always going to be an obstacle to overcome once he was on an NBA roster...teams look to the traditionally sized players first because, on average, they're the ones that fit the bill...because of the team's injuries and youth last season Leon got a chance to play and showed the organization something...but the opportunity to draft another PF with potentially higher upside came around this year and the team ran with it....as chance would have it, Davis was ready to contribute in advance of his experience level and this pushed Powe down the depth chart...the teams belief that veteran experience and traditional size were needed in the frontcourt kept him on the bench up until this point...but injuries have given Powe a chance to play and he's shown that he can indeed play effective, winning basketball both in tandem with Davis and as an undersized 5...

...circumstance has as much to do with success as ability sometimes....this happens often...

[billfromBoston]

....double post, my bad....

[BrokenLeftyJumper]

Tony Allen and Leon Powe are better than 90% of the players in the D-league, you can't just take "anybody" from the D-League and "give them a chance" and make them quality NBA role players...

I agree. I never said that you could take any player from the D-League and he could do what Tony Allen can do. What I am saying is that there are SOME players in the D-League who could give you similar results in the NBA. I'm talking about the guys who are tearing up the NBDL, not any old bozo in the NBDL. This is why I don't feel like Tony or Powe necessarily has enough value to be considered as serious assets on the trade market, there are guys in the NBDL who could give you similar results, and you wouldn't have to give anything up to get them besides paying a minimum salary.

Of course, if Tony and Leon keep playing like they did tonight, then I am absolutely dead wrong.

I think many intelligent fans of the NBA still fall for the premise that the good players play and those that "can't cut it" sit on the bench

This is basically my entire argument. I think this reasoning is correct, but you can stretch it out even farther. I don't believe that just because a guy is in the NBDL that he "can't cut it." I doubt if you matched up the last 5 guys on any NBA bench against a squad of very good NBDL players that the NBA guys would be considerably better. But it seems to me that some NBA fans generally do one of two things: (1) they overrate guys solely because are in or have been in the NBA (2) they dismiss players off-hand because they have never had NBA experience or have spent some time kicking around the D-League. I think the talent at the top is very exclusive in the NBA, but the farther you get down NBA rosters, the lesser the talent gap is. Guys at the top are a diamonds in the rough while the talents of guys on the ends of NBA benches are more dime a dozen, you could find a lot of equally talented guys out there who aren't in the NBA.

...circumstance has as much to do with success as ability sometimes....this happens often...

Bruce Bowen, Jamario Moon, Devin Brown, Matt Carroll, Matt Barnes, Mikki Moore...etc. Give a guy a shot and many times it works out. Because these types of players are available out there, it makes me believe that most role-players sitting on NBA benches probably don't have much trade value outside of filling desperate needs.

[Fencer reregistered]

With Pollard gimpy, Powe is our de facto backup center. I don't think he's going anywhere THIS SEASON unless he's replaced in that role.

[Kids Are Alright]

we've got to remember that Allan Ray had a couple of big games last year too.

Leon's prob going to be really effective against nonexistant frontcourt teams, of which there are a few to be sure.

[billfromBoston]

Tony Allen and Leon Powe are better than 90% of the players in the D-league, you can't just take "anybody" from the D-League and "give them a chance" and make them quality NBA role players...

I agree. I never said that you could take any player from the D-League and he could do what Tony Allen can do. What I am saying is that there are SOME players in the D-League who could give you similar results in the NBA. I'm talking about the guys who are tearing up the NBDL, not any old bozo in the NBDL. This is why I don't feel like Tony or Powe necessarily has enough value to be considered as serious assets on the trade market, there are guys in the NBDL who could give you similar results, and you wouldn't have to give anything up to get them besides paying a minimum salary.

Of course, if Tony and Leon keep playing like they did tonight, then I am absolutely dead wrong.

I think many intelligent fans of the NBA still fall for the premise that the good players play and those that "can't cut it" sit on the bench

This is basically my entire argument. I think this reasoning is correct, but you can stretch it out even farther. I don't believe that just because a guy is in the NBDL that he "can't cut it." I doubt if you matched up the last 5 guys on any NBA bench against a squad of very good NBDL players that the NBA guys would be considerably better. But it seems to me that some NBA fans generally do one of two things: (1) they overrate guys solely because are in or have been in the NBA (2) they dismiss players off-hand because they have never had NBA experience or have spent some time kicking around the D-League. I think the talent at the top is very exclusive in the NBA, but the farther you get down NBA rosters, the lesser the talent gap is. Guys at the top are a diamonds in the rough while the talents of guys on the ends of NBA benches are more dime a dozen, you could find a lot of equally talented guys out there who aren't in the NBA.

...circumstance has as much to do with success as ability sometimes....this happens often...

Bruce Bowen, Jamario Moon, Devin Brown, Matt Carroll, Matt Barnes, Mikki Moore...etc. Give a guy a shot and many times it works out. Because these types of players are available out there, it makes me believe that most role-players sitting on NBA benches probably don't have much trade value outside of filling desperate needs.

...this is on point IMO and any quality NBA scout worth his salt will tell you as much...that's why the D-League was formed in the first place...

You're also spot on about Allen and Powe's trade value...these guys are low-salary, fairly un-established players at this point in their careers and nobody gets much in return for non-lotto level players who project as role players...

Unlike Sully I don't think any "showcasing" is going on with anyone but Scalabrine...his minutes have completely come out of left field in terms of being a starter and hes got the contract and the career track record that I believe the team is trying to sell to someone...

Powe and TA just don't have the league value to convince a team to take on extra years of Scalabrine's contract, and he's the only salary slot player that could facilitate a deal for Cassell...it would take all three to get Cassell as well, so I highly doubt that's the team's intention...Cassell would boost this team's prospects for success, but their depth would be atrocious unless they really planned on using Pollard heavily at the 5...

Powe makes 750K, his contract would have to be paired with someon elses, Scal or TA...while I find a TA/Powe backage to be attractive, who is trading what for those guys? Cassell? Not without Scal and his extra 2 years...who else on the market is worth giving up quality depth for?

[billfromBoston]

we've got to remember that Allan Ray had a couple of big games last year too.

Leon's prob going to be really effective against nonexistant frontcourt teams, of which there are a few to be sure.

Exactly...look around the league at their rosters...the Suns, Spurs, Mavs, Cavs, Jazz, Warriors....all these playoff teams who are so good team-wise, none of them have amazing talent backing up their starters in the frontcourt...each has solid role players who do their job, but certainly not the type of guys that Leon Powe can't do battle with...

...we're not talking about becoming a star, we're talking about giving the team 10-15 minutes of tough D and gritty inside play against some less intense oposition with limited offensive talent, which mitigates height differentials very nicely...