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Draft prospects

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TheCelticTruth
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Post#41 » by TheCelticTruth » Sat Mar 1, 2008 6:21 pm

ICanOutreboundWalter wrote:Well, DraftExpress I'm pretty sure had Thabeet projected top 15 or so even after his terrible season. If a team is willing to take someone like a Saer Sene in the top 10, I don't think they would be scared off by a 7'4" guy not having a good first season.

I like Hardin alright, but keep in mind that he has now gone through 4 years of seasoning. When he was a sophomore, I'm sure he was a lot less coachable than he is now-because these are the things you learn when you grow up.

But I think the real problem I have is that I'm just not sure that Bill's words are accurate, and they are being taken as fact around here. If Thabeet was really that uncoachable, do you think Calhoun would play him as much as he does? Personally, I don't. He is still raw and I am thankful that hoping these types of guys pan out is not currently our problem, but I think the kid could make it.


i could go both ways there... one might be able to say that calhound has gotten so used to anchoring his defense with a shot blocker that he cant give up that luxury

as for bill, show me a time when he has been inaccurate, and ill stop having as much unshakeable faith in his scouting...fair?
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Post#42 » by billfromBoston » Sat Mar 1, 2008 6:21 pm

ICanOutreboundWalter wrote:If we are talking about Thabeet as a top 10 pick, then Bill is entitled to his opinion.

If we are talking about him falling to pick 30 (its not going to happen, anyway) then passing on him would be absolutely ludicrous. His intensity is up since last year, and on the mere possibility that he projects out, you gotta try it. Most guys at pick 30 never amount to anything-if you can get a superstar, you have to do that.

I also kinda dispute the whole "everyone I think will be a bust has been and everyone I think will be good has been" thing. I don't remember exact players, which means I'm not going to go back and grade you...but you are definitely biased towards finished products for the most part. Only 2 years or so have probably gone by since you made most of your predictions. These finished products guys are pretty much guaranteed PT, and IMO, there are a lot of players that will average 10 points with guaranteed PT.

To really talk about who was right and wrong about a draft, come back in 6 years.


I've been coming to this site for over 8 years and my own knowledge of the game has grown in that time, so i can see the development of my own understanding of the game during that time...you learn something every year if you're open to it...

That being said, I absolutely agree with the principle that you've got to wait at least 5 years before passing final judgement on a player...I think that I do that a lot better than many posters on this board who tend to condemn a player after a couple of seasons...

That being said, while its certainly foolhardy to cap I player's potential based off his current performance, a player's skill set and track history of his approach to the game give off a very good indication of what his "window" of potential may be...

Yes, at pick 30 you're probably not going to find a superstar, but I'd be much happier taking a guy like Harden or Jawai whom I believe are a higher probability for success than Thabeet...both these players have as much potential as Thabeet in my estimation, aside from shot-blocking...but rebouding, defending, low-post offense, face-up, you name it...Thabeet is an athletic guy, but he really isn't all that skilled...couple that with my questions about his attitude and I really don't see what the major attraction is...doesn't have great latteral movement, so he's not much help in blitzing picks, not a great feel for the game, doesn't have any real offensive game beyond just putting up the ball near the basket...isn't a great positional rebounder and doesn't range rebound at all...

I just don't see the draw beyond blocking a lot of shots, which is much different in the NCAA where a relatively immobile big man-in terms of latterally-won't be able to just camp out and wait for guys...

...I could be wrong, that's just my feeling on it...not really going to push it much more than that...to me, his upside is Mark Eaton and his downside is Yinka Dare...that's just me...
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Post#43 » by billfromBoston » Sat Mar 1, 2008 6:37 pm

TheCelticTruth wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



i could go both ways there... one might be able to say that calhound has gotten so used to anchoring his defense with a shot blocker that he cant give up that luxury

as for bill, show me a time when he has been inaccurate, and ill stop having as much unshakable faith in his scouting...fair?


...nice words Truth, but i've been wrong plenty...even professional scouts and GM's grade success as a 60% accuracy or better-the standards aren't that high even with the best of them...

If you dig deep enough in the RealGM archives you'll see things that are inaccurate...I certainly thought that Justin Reed would be a player who stuck in the league and became a rotation player, that hasn't worked out...I liked Sebastian Telfair last year-as I still do-but Rondo proved me wrong and developed his game faster than I imagined...I didn't think that Deron Williams would reach elite PG status, I thought he was more of a quality starter type...there are plenty....

But, I've also stated that players like Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes, and Brandon Bass were players...I knew that Craig Smith could play in this league when most doubted him due to size...Boris Diaw too...going way back, I saw a potentially excellent PG in Steve Nash coming out of school and even went to Santa Clara because of him...David West is a guy that comes to mind as well as Mike Finley...there's countless...

But there's a difference between projecting a range of player accomplishment and simply stating a player is "awesome" or he "sucks"...I almost unequivocally back up my estimations with tangible examples from a player's offensive and defensive games...things to look for that I believe indicate WHY he will be what I think, not just a statement of what I think about him in general...

I don't know why i'm even writing all this other than to point out one of my pet peeves, and that is the short term memory of this board sometimes as well as the lack of detail in explanation about why someone feels that a given player will succeed or fail...

Too often I just see simplistic things about cliche's like height and athleticism...success in the NBA takes a myriad of skills and there is no "book" on the prototypes for success...I respect detailed and thoughtful analysis and I try to provide that with my posts...the feedback I often get is simply an attack on my viewpoint based off things other than counterpoints to the things I write...

I scout professionally and I've never given more than constructive feedback on professional, detailed analysis in return...If you like a player tell me why and let's talk...
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Post#44 » by P2 » Sat Mar 1, 2008 6:38 pm

I just want a player who will be in the Final Four this year. Someone like Daequan Cook.
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Post#45 » by cfan79 » Sat Mar 1, 2008 6:59 pm

Roy Hibbert might slip in the draft. He's a senior that is compared to Joel Przybilla.
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Post#46 » by TheCelticTruth » Sat Mar 1, 2008 7:28 pm

lol, i think hibbert is better than przybilla now. i doubt przybilla would do as good of a job against a fully healthy oden in a game as hibbert did. i know you cant judge purely off that but i think hibbert has a pretty good future.
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Post#47 » by jfs1000d » Sat Mar 1, 2008 7:46 pm

On Thabeet. I think the work ethic is like his game, a work in progress. There has been a lot of people talked up about his "bust potential." IMO, that is very high considering how raw he is at the game.

But, Bill essentially said he was a dog, which if he checked back now that would certainly not be the case. Last year Thabeet was a dog. The reason is he didn't know what hard work was. Now, he is just starting to get it.

Thabeet isn't lazy. He is just neophyte.

Now, he is 7-4 with a big body, is agile and powerful and has quick feet. It is starting to come together, the question is of it will ever become a full package? I don't know, there is a risk that Thabeet will never catch up to his immense natural athletic ability.

There is also a chance however that in 4 years the guy can learn hoops, learn to play with contact and use his size, and then dominate. There is no reason that he shouldn't dominate.

He is a 7-4 fluid athlete with monster hands. It's funny to think of it, but he has just started to dunk the ball regularly. Why is that? He discovered that dunking it is easier. He is playing with much more aggressiveness defensively and on the boards.

The offense will come. While he isn't the holy grail of African centers who picked up the game late like Olajuwan, he is in that mold. Former soccer player with great feet.

Thabeet has started to show a motor and some competitiveness. He is learning how to play.

If Thabeet is top 10, he is coming up. 10-20 he is going to think about it hard. If he is 20 or later not a chance.

IF Thabeet improves like I think with one more year of college could be a top 5 pick in 2009 -- maybe even NO. 1 overall of he start to dominate physically.

Or, he could be Olowokandi.
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Post#48 » by TheCelticTruth » Sat Mar 1, 2008 7:57 pm

well thats the ultimate point of possible potential, but certainly not that easy considering how slow he progresses right now. hes not a great athletic specimen either. whats a comparison to his style of play for you if he goes that path? im having a hard time seeing it. i dont think he has the power of say a curry type guy, but i dont see him being a lot better than that to compare his impact to anyone better. and i dont think thats a given, considering curry is a big disappointment when you think about how good of a prospect he was.

also, i want people to know im not hatin' on the kid, ive just seen nothing in his game that makes me feel good about him as an nba player.
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Post#49 » by ICanOutreboundWalter » Sat Mar 1, 2008 10:23 pm

What if he can be a healthy Theo Ratliff? That would be worth it, right?
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Post#50 » by TheCelticTruth » Sat Mar 1, 2008 11:49 pm

a healthy theo ratliff was a pretty darn good player, and i could reasonably see that for him. right now i would have my doubts, but if he didnt leave this year and showed another year of improvement with the same increase in ethic and passion, id feel loads better about him

let me add, because i love your acquiesence to give me a comparison, that at this point my hesitation would be im not all that sure he could get to that level, if i was reasonably sure he could, i would take him anywhere outside of the top 15
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Post#51 » by MoBSTa » Sun Mar 2, 2008 6:27 pm

Hey guy's, I seen a scout at a highschool district game friday hand a role of money as round as a baseball to a member of the school and he told them to put that money in there Athletic fund.


Does this happen often and is it legal?
This scout never asked for a reciept or anything, and why would he do this?
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Post#52 » by hiphop1 » Sun Mar 2, 2008 6:35 pm

MoBSTa wrote:Hey guy's, I seen a scout at a highschool district game friday hand a role of money as round as a baseball to a member of the school and he told them to put that money in there Athletic fund.


Does this happen often and is it legal?
This scout never asked for a reciept or anything, and why would he do this?


Probably to make sure the athletic director calls them first when there is a good prospect and also maybe the atheletic director or coach will sway the player to go to there school.
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