The Denver pick was hardly guaranteed to be Amare. For one thing, they traded away all their decent players and tanked only AFTER they knew they had their own pick.
Even WITH the tanking, the Denver pick became the 5th. The 5th and 6th picks in that draft turned out to be busts, the 7th has had health problems, the 8th has been pretty blah, and things only got good at #9 and #10. And then there was a pretty long run of useless players until #23.
If Wallace had just taken Richard Jefferson over Kedrick Brown, nobody in their right minds would be criticizing the decision to keep the pick. But yeah, if you don't have a good outside shot, you don't work out well for Obie ... so why in the world didn't they take Arenas over Forte?
I agree with all other criticisms of Wallace, but not that one.
The Kedrick Brown Story
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Fencer reregistered
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GuyClinch
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Dumping Joe Johnson was pretty dumb - but I don't think drafting Kedrick was that bad a move. In hindsight we can say that junior college guys should be avoided but talentwise Kedrick had the stuff. I think he could have traded down and still grabbed him...but I can see spending a first round pick on him.
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JMillott
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Chris Wallace is simply one of the worst GM's around, he does actually have a nice eye for talent but once he gets the players on his team he seams to lose judgement the more he sees them.
It also wasn't the brightest idea in the world to add three first round draft picks in 2001 with a coach who was all about winning and couldn't have cared less about developing talent.
For all Rick Patino's mistakes here in Boston he did at least try and balance himself between trying to win and trying to develop players.
He made his mistakes with the Billups/Anderson trade and the Potepenko/1st rounder deals but he also knew when to cut the cord with Mercer and he tried to cut the Antoine Walker cord when his value was still high.
For all the crap Patino got he didn't leave a mess behind him when he left, he left a team which had tuned him out as a coach but that had talent, extra 1st rounders coming to them and cap space on the horizon.
It took Chris Wallace all of a year and a half to destroy all of the good things that Patino had in fact set them up for.
It also wasn't the brightest idea in the world to add three first round draft picks in 2001 with a coach who was all about winning and couldn't have cared less about developing talent.
For all Rick Patino's mistakes here in Boston he did at least try and balance himself between trying to win and trying to develop players.
He made his mistakes with the Billups/Anderson trade and the Potepenko/1st rounder deals but he also knew when to cut the cord with Mercer and he tried to cut the Antoine Walker cord when his value was still high.
For all the crap Patino got he didn't leave a mess behind him when he left, he left a team which had tuned him out as a coach but that had talent, extra 1st rounders coming to them and cap space on the horizon.
It took Chris Wallace all of a year and a half to destroy all of the good things that Patino had in fact set them up for.
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eitanr
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You know a gm is bad when he makes Rick Pitino look good. In all seriousness a previous poster said it best when he said that the average Celtics fan at the time saw potential in Joe Johnson and is probably not suprised that he turned out to be the player he is today. It did not take a genius to see it. Obviously most fans would be biased about their own players, but many fans are realistic as well.
As for KB, he seemed to be a nice defensive guy with some hops and energy...he looked like a Kirk Snyder. JJ, as previoulsy said, looked at worse like a good role player, maybe Desmond Mason (at worst) and of course at best probably a little better than he is now. That is a big range, one that is worthy of him staying a Celtic.
I also think it's different than the Billups scenario.
CB has been through 4 teams (ORL, DEN, TOR, MIN) and always looked like he'd be a nice perrenial backup scoring point ala Carlos Arroyo. Chauncey actually improved drastically later in his development which is rarer amongst NBA players. Usually its a 3 year system where if players dont show you anything by yr 3 they probably never will. So Pitino saw this guy as a perenial backup PG which many other GMs saw as well later on...getting Kenny for a perrenial PG is good value, it was very hard to tell he was going to turn into an All Star PG.
As for KB, he seemed to be a nice defensive guy with some hops and energy...he looked like a Kirk Snyder. JJ, as previoulsy said, looked at worse like a good role player, maybe Desmond Mason (at worst) and of course at best probably a little better than he is now. That is a big range, one that is worthy of him staying a Celtic.
I also think it's different than the Billups scenario.
CB has been through 4 teams (ORL, DEN, TOR, MIN) and always looked like he'd be a nice perrenial backup scoring point ala Carlos Arroyo. Chauncey actually improved drastically later in his development which is rarer amongst NBA players. Usually its a 3 year system where if players dont show you anything by yr 3 they probably never will. So Pitino saw this guy as a perenial backup PG which many other GMs saw as well later on...getting Kenny for a perrenial PG is good value, it was very hard to tell he was going to turn into an All Star PG.
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eloper
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I couldn't disagree with most of what you said anymore. There's no way the average fan thought JJ was going to be a star. Do you see Martell Webster as a future star, because he's pretty similar to the JJ we had the privilege of seeing, and I don't see a whole lot of people talking about him as if he's going to be leading any teams in scoring. Unless the "average Celtic fan" followed JJ in college closely, they had no reason to believe JJ was going to be a star, because he never showed anything even closely resembling star qualities while in Boston. At the time of the JJ trade the common perception was he would end up a nice player, but not a guy who was going to come back to bite us in the ass. I remember a lot of people questioning whether he'd ever reach the level of either Rogers or Delk.
Kedrick had the tools to be a Gerald Wallace type player offensively, and while he wouldn't have been that level of a shotblocker/ball hawk, he'd of been an excellent defender had he put in the work. Kedrick was the guy who was perceived to have all the upside, not Joe.
Kedrick had the tools to be a Gerald Wallace type player offensively, and while he wouldn't have been that level of a shotblocker/ball hawk, he'd of been an excellent defender had he put in the work. Kedrick was the guy who was perceived to have all the upside, not Joe.
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GuyClinch
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Oh the irony that GG fan is posting about Joe Johnson showing "nothing" in Boston. LMAO.
Dude the guy was BARELY in Boston. People were SHOCKED when we dumped this guy. The guy was a college STUD (unlike Gerald Green) and showed real progress in his brief Boston stay.
At the age of 20 he started 33 games out of 48 scored around 6.3 points with a couple of assists and rebounds each game filling out the box score. People were EXCITED about this guy. I was on the C's mailing list and I remember.
if that was they way we treated GG you would be screaming murder. You don't trade a college stud contributing to an NBA team at the edge of 20. Danny Ainge has pointed this out and has give ALL our young players good run before giving up on them.
Martell Webster? LMAO. Dude that guy didn't even go to college never mind put up huge numbers there like Joe Johnson did. The MOMENT he was drafted I remember hearing about he would be at least a ten year starter and a probable all-star.
Pete
Dude the guy was BARELY in Boston. People were SHOCKED when we dumped this guy. The guy was a college STUD (unlike Gerald Green) and showed real progress in his brief Boston stay.
At the age of 20 he started 33 games out of 48 scored around 6.3 points with a couple of assists and rebounds each game filling out the box score. People were EXCITED about this guy. I was on the C's mailing list and I remember.
if that was they way we treated GG you would be screaming murder. You don't trade a college stud contributing to an NBA team at the edge of 20. Danny Ainge has pointed this out and has give ALL our young players good run before giving up on them.
Martell Webster? LMAO. Dude that guy didn't even go to college never mind put up huge numbers there like Joe Johnson did. The MOMENT he was drafted I remember hearing about he would be at least a ten year starter and a probable all-star.
Pete
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eitanr
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First off...The Blazers should not write off Webster by any means. The guy has had some nice scoring outputs and at the very least is a very good role player. In fact, if I am Portland, I deal Outlaw before Webster, if I deal anyone. I think Webster with Oden forcing double teams in the post, will be a very effective player. He has Glen Rice-Steve Smith potential (in their primes, both were 20 points scorers or late teens etc).
Lets play the same theory now. Should the Blazers deal Webster in a deal for 2 good current vet bench players the equivalent to Rogers and Delk in talent, at the end of their contratcs...let's say Tim Thomas and Brevin Knight? (That's the only pair of vets at the end of their contract, on the same team that can be used for such a comparison), maybe the Clipps add an 08 2nd rounder.
That's a horrible deal just based on pure talent. Forget that Portland has depth at the 1 and 4. Even Webster and the pick for Mo Williams..a deal being thrown around with that as the basis...is awful for Portland. You don't deal guys at that age with that kind of potential period.
Lets play the same theory now. Should the Blazers deal Webster in a deal for 2 good current vet bench players the equivalent to Rogers and Delk in talent, at the end of their contratcs...let's say Tim Thomas and Brevin Knight? (That's the only pair of vets at the end of their contract, on the same team that can be used for such a comparison), maybe the Clipps add an 08 2nd rounder.
That's a horrible deal just based on pure talent. Forget that Portland has depth at the 1 and 4. Even Webster and the pick for Mo Williams..a deal being thrown around with that as the basis...is awful for Portland. You don't deal guys at that age with that kind of potential period.
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celticfan42487
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He wasn't hyped?
http://www.nbadraft.net/profiles/joejohnson.htm
There's the link to his profile. Go ahead and check the mock draft for this year's draft. NO one this year has a higher rank then Joe Johnson did for his profile.
That means back in they think No One in the upcoming draft has as much a shot to become great then Joe did.
Watching Joe your felt good in what you had. He did his roleplaying job very well and you knew he was just waiting to use the creation abilities more. I actually thought that if he wasn't a starter by the end of the season he's become a 6th man canadite to help get Pierce and Walker some rest [back then they played like 42 mpg because no one else could create]
http://www.nbadraft.net/profiles/joejohnson.htm
There's the link to his profile. Go ahead and check the mock draft for this year's draft. NO one this year has a higher rank then Joe Johnson did for his profile.
That means back in they think No One in the upcoming draft has as much a shot to become great then Joe did.
Watching Joe your felt good in what you had. He did his roleplaying job very well and you knew he was just waiting to use the creation abilities more. I actually thought that if he wasn't a starter by the end of the season he's become a 6th man canadite to help get Pierce and Walker some rest [back then they played like 42 mpg because no one else could create]
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UGA Hayes
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I may be in the minority but I'm kind of glad we don't have Joe Johnson,(I see 90 % of the Hawks game). Yes the deal we included him in was terrible, but to me he is one of the worst kind of overrated players. He is great at hitting tough shots that make you go wow, but really doesn't score as much as he should, doesn't get to the line as much as he should doesn't hit 3s as much as he should, etc. He should be a better rebounder and defender.
Basically he superficcially looks good, but isn't really producing as much as one would think. He is the kind of guy who gets a ludicrous contract that you immediatrly regret.
Basically he superficcially looks good, but isn't really producing as much as one would think. He is the kind of guy who gets a ludicrous contract that you immediatrly regret.