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Three Point Shooters, Aging Legs, and Ray Allen's Minutes

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Three Point Shooters, Aging Legs, and Ray Allen's Minutes 

Post#1 » by threrf23 » Thu May 15, 2008 8:13 am

I found myself – coincidentally – doing some research on three point shooting (Houston Rockets are looking for interns and are asking applicants to develop a model to project the league’s best 3 pt shooters year in and out….I have the time and kinda like doing this stuff anyway so I figured what the hell)

Anyways, I got a hold of a spreadsheet containing stats for just about every player in every season (up til a few years ago at least), with age included. I tried to at least briefly analyze the spreadsheet...one thing I was trying to determine was trends re: age and performance.

Now…performance was measured like this: 3 pt % * (3 pt attempts per minute played) – (logic being a player who can afford to be more selective in his shooting attempts will get better shot opportunities….Lebron and Kobe might not seem to be great 3 pt shooters but in a role where they were low volume spot shooters they would presumably shoot a good percentage)….results were further adjusted a little bit based on minutes per game.

Sure, a player’s team and teammates and offense certainly affects the quality of shot opportunities received – Joe Johnson shot a high % his last year with Phoenix and hasn’t come close to matching it with Atlanta, for example. But, looking at all players in a given age group across so many seasons, I figure its possible to find the category leader for each age group and use that as an acceptable indication of the affect of age on 3 point shooting.

I ignored players who played less than 18 minutes per game in a season, because this seemed to be a good number to get rid of flukes (except perhaps for Martell Webster a few years back…but if there are legitimacy to his numbers that year then he can be expected to break out any season now - also to note - Kobe posted a .52 playing 16 mpg as an 18 year old).

Anyways here were the results:

Image

Now, potential implications for Ray Allen:

This table would seem to indicate that we do not have to worry about him losing his shooting ability in years to come – players usually don’t. BUT, you may notice a steep enough drop-off in peak ability between ages 31 and 32. There really is no other explanation that aging, weakening legs – and this would affect Ray Allen more than anyone else on our team due to his primary role and minutes requirements.

Last season was the first season Ray would have been expected to experience this drop-off. It might not have been coincidental that it was also the first season he had to miss extended stretches of playing time due to injury (the fact his coach played him about 40 mpg couldn’t have helped either).

This season, I have mentioned in a couple other threads – he is a sharp shooter in the first quarter (when he is definitely rested), the last two minutes of regulation/OT during close games (likely rested during timeouts and presumably has boosted adrenaline). But in between – he is an okay 3 pt shooter – but really not that much of an upgrade over, say, Tony Allen.

On a monthly basis, his 3 pt % is higher when he plays less minutes and takes at least a game or two off.

Doc points out that Ray has played X many minutes per game previously in his career, but he may very well be missing something. I would much rather see Ray playing 33-35 mpg and shoot 47% from the arc as opposed to playing ~40 mpg and shooting slightly less than 40% - and I would like to see him fresh down the stretch - especially considering we’ve got serviceable (arguably more than serviceable) guys like Tony Allen and Eddie House pining the bench right now. IMO, if Tony Allen plays the first 6-7 minutes of the 4th quarter tonight, we close out the game much more easily than we did.
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Post#2 » by Jammer » Thu May 15, 2008 10:56 am

One thing that your chart in no way factors in is Ray's pregame routine of taking 300 jump shots.

Personally, I think that's too much for any player. I think that you're leaving shots on the practice floor, due to tired legs, arms, wrists, whatever.

Ray will be 33 in July.

I personally wish that he'd scale back that pre-game routine DURING this seasons playoffs so perhaps he'd have a little more in the tank DURING THE ACTUAL GAME.
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Re: Three Point Shooters, Aging Legs, and Ray Allen's Minute 

Post#3 » by ermocrate » Thu May 15, 2008 11:08 am

threrf23 wrote:I found myself
"Negativity in this town sucks"
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Post#4 » by BillessuR6 » Thu May 15, 2008 11:13 am

Thanks for the analysis!

Jammer I disagree about him scaling back his pre-game routine. The man has been doing this for 10+ years and with his disease, changing it would completely destroy him.

But he needs to play less in games! Doc must cut down his minutes to under 35 and he will be much more effective, IMO. Posey or Tony, maybe even House, can contribute at SG in those 5+ minutes...
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Post#5 » by Red2 » Thu May 15, 2008 1:05 pm

I really want Ray to do well but he is as tight as a drum right now and honestly he has not had a good year. He turns the ball over way too much and he just can't create his own shot. When he gets to the rim he can't finish. I'm certainly no expert on jump shooters but IMO he is either still recovering from his ankle surgery or he is legs are gone. right now in the playoffs he is a marginal player at best. he is certainly not an all star caliber player. But like most jump shooters you hope that the next game will be better. I go into every game thinking this will be the game he takes over and gets hot. But every game is the same lately: 4-11, 4-12, 4-14. Maybe it's the way Doc uses him. whatever it is he has been a major disappointment. if he coulod get hot it would open everything up for us. of all the players on our team affected by pressure he is the one who is showing it the most
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Post#6 » by BigHands » Thu May 15, 2008 3:43 pm

When Bill Simmons wrote the following back in July 2007, I filed it away mentally....Simmons is often wrong and his style requires exaggeration....but still.....there have been moments when I have wondered if he was wrong this time or not....

"Thanks to rumors that the Celtics might trade the No. 5 pick, Wally Szczerbiak and Delonte West for a soon-to-be 32-year-old shooting guard coming off double ankle surgeries (Ray Allen), I just spent the last 20 minutes on basketball-reference.com trying to find one great shooting guard who didn't decline significantly in Years 12 through 14 of his NBA career. Here's the list: Reggie Miller. That's it. Also, I just threw up in my mouth and some of it went up the back of my nose."
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Post#7 » by Kioann15 » Thu May 15, 2008 3:46 pm

"I really want Ray to do well but he is as tight as a drum right now and honestly he has not had a good year. He turns the ball over way too much and he just can't create his own shot. When he gets to the rim he can't finish. I'm certainly no expert on jump shooters but IMO he is either still recovering from his ankle surgery or he is legs are gone. right now in the playoffs he is a marginal player at best. he is certainly not an all star caliber player. But like most jump shooters you hope that the next game will be better. I go into every game thinking this will be the game he takes over and gets hot. But every game is the same lately: 4-11, 4-12, 4-14. Maybe it's the way Doc uses him. whatever it is he has been a major disappointment. if he coulod get hot it would open everything up for us. of all the players on our team affected by pressure he is the one who is showing it the most"


I completely agree.
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Post#8 » by Pogue Mahone » Thu May 15, 2008 9:13 pm

Interesting study. Lemme gets some vittles in my stomach and I will digest both before I formulate my reply.
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Post#9 » by dinoz » Thu May 15, 2008 11:41 pm

Kioann15 wrote:"I really want Ray to do well but he is as tight as a drum right now and honestly he has not had a good year. He turns the ball over way too much and he just can't create his own shot. When he gets to the rim he can't finish. I'm certainly no expert on jump shooters but IMO he is either still recovering from his ankle surgery or he is legs are gone. right now in the playoffs he is a marginal player at best. he is certainly not an all star caliber player. But like most jump shooters you hope that the next game will be better. I go into every game thinking this will be the game he takes over and gets hot. But every game is the same lately: 4-11, 4-12, 4-14. Maybe it's the way Doc uses him. whatever it is he has been a major disappointment. if he coulod get hot it would open everything up for us. of all the players on our team affected by pressure he is the one who is showing it the most"


I completely agree.


I agree as well. Ray is so one-dimensional. He knows that shooting is the only attribute he brings to the table, under pressure, he tries harder and harder, which doesn't help a shooter. What amazes me is how feeble Ray looks when he drives to the basket. And his brain-dead turnovers have been killing the team. Ray Allen averaging 10 points per game in 36 minutes is simply unbelievable.
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Post#10 » by dinoz » Thu May 15, 2008 11:45 pm

Jammer wrote:One thing that your chart in no way factors in is Ray's pregame routine of taking 300 jump shots.

Personally, I think that's too much for any player. I think that you're leaving shots on the practice floor, due to tired legs, arms, wrists, whatever.

Ray will be 33 in July.

I personally wish that he'd scale back that pre-game routine DURING this seasons playoffs so perhaps he'd have a little more in the tank DURING THE ACTUAL GAME.

Every player (or person) has to make adjustments as he or she ages. If Ray's routine is as you say, he needs to back off for the good of the team or the organization simply needs to order him to back off, again for the good of the team.
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Post#11 » by meatball sub » Fri May 16, 2008 12:37 am

IMO he has disappointed this season without a doubt. He's been red hot at times and ice cold at others...exactly what you'd expect from an average jump shooter like, um, Eddie House. Unfortunately what you'd expect from your average jump shooter is not what you'd expect from a multiple time All-Star like Ray Allen.

I honestly thought Ray would have one of the best single season 3 point shooting percentages in NBA history entering this year with all the wide open 3's I thought he would (and did) take.

It's not like Ray has been brutal all season. He's won some games for us almost by himself and doesn't cause problems as far as I know. There's still time for Ray to be remembered this season for playoff heroics rather than the piece of GPA that didn't fit.

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