A Hunch About Cassell and the Cs

[LenBiasBaller]

I can see how DA would want to get rid of Giddens especially after the crap he pulled when we drafted him....There is still a lot of time until we have to make a decision. A lot can happen from now until our first game...Maybe the Celts will try to play up Giddens or Walker during the preseason to showcase them for a trade...

At this point I really could care less about Sam's Veteran status and him winning two titles...from all indications he is done...I saw him playing D during the practices and wow is he bad...maybe he plays good this year and i'll eat some crow but i'm ready to ride out with Pruitt and see what he can do...He can def. play way better D, is athletic, nice little jumper....We'll see I guess.

[buckner1976]

I understand people were frustrated that Sam wasn't circa 1999 when he came here last year but you are talking about a player who put up a 17 PER in his 3/4's of season in LAC. Sam can still play and has options, if the C's cut him he has a job in the minute he clears waivers. Boston asked for him to come back he didn't ask back he had the same offer the C's gave him from DEN. Either way I would take Doc at his word on this all 4 point guards make the team because it doesn't really make sense to do anything else. House really isn't a point, they have to give Pruitt a chance to earn some mins before cutting him, and they are naked at the position without Sam.

I actually think the most logical cuts are the same two guys who are just as likely to get packaged in a deal and that is Scal and Giddens. Combined they would return about 5.3 mil in salary. I never have bought in to Giddens being a fit for this team, I thought he was selected for somebody else from the jump. One team that is thin at SG and has a tux at a frat party is OKC, maybe Giddens is enough for them to eat Scal in exchange for Joe Smith who deserves a better fate.

I actually think that makes no sense. Scal and Giddens sound like emotional choices. I get that people have a problem with Scal because he is't all that talented and a bit uncoordinated but there is nothing and there hasn't been anything for some time to suggest that Scal is going anywhere. This Scal business still sounds like somebody's unilateral wet dream.

And Giddens leaving sounds like a pipe dream. He was a first round selection. He was their choice and there's no reason to suggest he was a pick for anyone else. In fact on numerous occasions both Doc and Danny have gone out of their way to praise this kid as a playmaker at both ends of the floor. I think some people are maybe letting a lack of knowledge about Giddens and one "not-as-flattering-review-in-comparison-to-Walker" cloud judgement on a young player who is NOT Gerald Green.

Smart money still says Cassell or BBD. Davis is a free agent after who at the end of the year was beat out for minutes by Powe this year and Cassell could still stick as a coach.

[Hemingway]

If it comes down to Sam or Gabe I think Danny will pick Sam. What if Rondo goes down for any significant period of time? Is Gabe gonna start? Or Tony Allen? I guess Eddy House but I thats a major step back. Sam, RA, PP, KG, Perk sounds good to me.

I don't know what we have with Gabe however. What do we all think his potential right now is? Anther thing I'll have to look up is pg options in next summers free agency.

I think Rondo is our point for the long haul so the question is who do we want as back up for the long haul? Is Gabe the guy? I think for the next few seasons it would be great to have a vet former allstar type behind Rondo. Increase the odds that Rondo becomes a star. After the big 3 it is Rondo and whoever-else-we-get's team.

[buckner1976]

I can see how DA would want to get rid of Giddens especially after the crap he pulled when we drafted him....There is still a lot of time until we have to make a decision. A lot can happen from now until our first game...Maybe the Celts will try to play up Giddens or Walker during the preseason to showcase them for a trade...

At this point I really could care less about Sam's Veteran status and him winning two titles...from all indications he is done...I saw him playing D during the practices and wow is he bad...maybe he plays good this year and i'll eat some crow but i'm ready to ride out with Pruitt and see what he can do...He can def. play way better D, is athletic, nice little jumper....We'll see I guess.

Sorry but you're misinformed sir. Giddens didn't pull anything. Danny didn't want to do the contract until after he had dealt with the Posey situation. Rookie contracts are guaranteed but the rookie scale has some slide and Danny wouldn't agree to the amount. Giddens agent deemed it prudent to keep his client out of camp until the deal was signed. It wasn't personal, it was business and completely expected.

[Celtsfan1980]

I strongly believe the Celtics are NOT looking to move Big Baby.

Perkins has a questionable shoulder.
O'Bryant is unproven.
Scalabrine can only fill in at the 4.
Posey's power forward minutes will increase the need for big men.

Baby was inconsistent last year but that's to be expected of a second rounder. (In fact "inconsistent" is beyond expectations of someone drafted that late.)

Ainge said yesterday that Davis was among five young players who have greatly improved since last season (Rondo, Perkins, Powe, and Tony Allen are the others).

If they get a great deal for Big Baby or anyone else I'm sure they'd trade him, but they're looking to develop him. Baby will be consistently needed this year, as will Leon Powe.

What they don't need is four point guards. Logically if Miles can take it physically, Pruitt or Cassell won't make the roster. Yeah Doc did say they could go with 4 points, but I think he's just keeping the pressure on Miles with that statement.

I completely agree. I think they'll either get rid of Miles or one of the guards. They don't have enough bigs, so by getting rid of one of their bigs, they're putting themselves in a position where they're one injury away from possibly looking at the d-league for a player. Big Baby may not be a Celtic after this season, but he should certainly have a role on the team this season. If Davis has improved like another member said, that's a good sign and hopefully he can remain a Celtic after this season.

[LenBiasBaller]

I can see how DA would want to get rid of Giddens especially after the crap he pulled when we drafted him....There is still a lot of time until we have to make a decision. A lot can happen from now until our first game...Maybe the Celts will try to play up Giddens or Walker during the preseason to showcase them for a trade...

Sorry but you're misinformed sir. Giddens didn't pull anything. Danny didn't want to do the contract until after he had dealt with the Posey situation. Rookie contracts are guaranteed but the rookie scale has some slide and Danny wouldn't agree to the amount. Giddens agent deemed it prudent to keep his client out of camp until the deal was signed. It wasn't personal, it was business and completely expected.

Well a lot of good that did him. I mean whatever the kid did what his agent wanted. And now he's lost without a clue during practices...Wiggle room? I do not know anything about any room for wiggle for rookies deals...I also did not read anything about DA and Giddens not being able to reach an agreement. I thought it was clear that we were just trying to work out deals with Posey, House, etc. I thought rookie deals were pretty automatic but what do I know.

[LongTimeFan]

I think you guys underestimate the respect DA has around the league. A players value is enhanced a lot by being drafted by DA. Jefferesen, Gomes, West, Rondo & Powe testify to how good he is at drafting.

That incremental value is possibly for sale. Teams would like a piece of it. We would like a piece of it too, if need be.

We have no first round pick next year. It would be nice for us to get one. (A mid first round pick is worth a top five player to us.)

This value arbitrage is something DA exploits over and over to improve our talent level. This is a talent profit making operation. Let the bidding begin.

[Dave_From_NB]

If it comes down to Sam or Gabe I think Danny will pick Sam. What if Rondo goes down for any significant period of time? Is Gabe gonna start? Or Tony Allen? I guess Eddy House but I thats a major step back. Sam, RA, PP, KG, Perk sounds good to me.

Well, we had the best record in the regular season with Eddy as backup, and by the time the finals had finished Eddy was getting more minutes than Sam. I'm not at all sold that Sam is any less a step back than Eddy, and at this point in his career Sam's skills are rapidly declining while Eddy's are probably at least constant from where they were. IMO Eddy is more likely to replace Rondo, with Sam or Pruitt backup.

I think the whole idea of Sam retiring at the start to coach, and then coming back later to play, is quite fishy and I don't think the Celtics would get away with it. I think all other teams and probably the league, would look at it as the Celtics doing a stunt to work around the roster limit and the league wouldn't agree with the re-instatement.

Conventional wisdom seems to be that PG's take a while to break into the league, and as a second rounder it's not surprising that Pruitt still isn't there yet. But I think they keep him around, because with no first round pick in 2009 there is no apparent way of replacing what Pruitt is - a young developing backup PG. Whereas with Davis, we have Erden in the pipeline as replacement for next season.

I still see Davis moving for a pick as my expectation of a move. And if subsequently later in the season we need a Big, I could see Cassell retiring so we could sign a Mutombo/Mourning type.

In the meantime it's good to have him around, it creates competition which wouldn't have been in place had only 15 players shown up for camp.

[buckner1976]

I can see how DA would want to get rid of Giddens especially after the crap he pulled when we drafted him....There is still a lot of time until we have to make a decision. A lot can happen from now until our first game...Maybe the Celts will try to play up Giddens or Walker during the preseason to showcase them for a trade...

Sorry but you're misinformed sir. Giddens didn't pull anything. Danny didn't want to do the contract until after he had dealt with the Posey situation. Rookie contracts are guaranteed but the rookie scale has some slide and Danny wouldn't agree to the amount. Giddens agent deemed it prudent to keep his client out of camp until the deal was signed. It wasn't personal, it was business and completely expected.

Well a lot of good that did him. I mean whatever the kid did what his agent wanted. And now he's lost without a clue during practices...Wiggle room? I do not know anything about any room for wiggle for rookies deals...I also did not read anything about DA and Giddens not being able to reach an agreement. I thought it was clear that we were just trying to work out deals with Posey, House, etc. I thought rookie deals were pretty automatic but what do I know.

To a degree you're right but rookie deals within the scale of where they're drafted can also be signed from anywhere within 80-120% of the amount allotted for the draft position. Most rookies tend to get 120% of this amount but it's not written in stone. Danny likely didn't want to commit to the 120% until he had addressed the Posey situation.

All that aside Giddens was still working out. We're not talking about a lazy, ungrateful dumb kid like Gerald Green here. Many reports have Giddens as a gym rat who just wants to play ball and is extremely appreciative of the new chance he has here especially considering the indiscretions of his past.

Not that I don't love Walker, BBD, Miles, and the rest but I have to say I'm surprised by the amount of posters completely overlooking Giddens' capabilities. There is a player here, just wait and see.

[MVP16]

I had a similar hunch about Cassell, but it turns out that the hunch was probably wrong...

Guard Sam Cassell actually has a guaranteed one-year deal this season, not the nonguaranteed deal as previously thought following a misinterpretation from an interview with a team official.

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2008/10/06/good_business_model/?page=2

[LenBiasBaller]

Yea I agree we have to wait and see what happens during the preseason...time will tell...

[Rocky5000]

If it comes down to Sam or Gabe I think Danny will pick Sam. What if Rondo goes down for any significant period of time? Is Gabe gonna start? Or Tony Allen?

Tony Allen played pg when Rondo missed games last year and he actually did pretty well. When TA starts, he seems to play better, even if it's at pg.

[Hemingway]

If we release Gabe do you think anyone picks him up?

[Man_Up]

From all indications Miles is going to be the faux Posey. Cassell has a guaranteed contract. Powe & Baby aren't likely going anywhere. POB has a guaranteed contract and is the only true center after Perkins. The two rookies aren't going to get cut. And we all know the starters roster spot security isn't a question.

The two odd men out are Scal & Pruitt. Scal isn't likely to be cut becuase of his contract, and I can't see Pruitt being cut when he has some value. This is just how I see it.

[Red2]

scott souza hinted at cassell becoming a coach the other night. how about JR and Scal to NJ for one of their big men? they seem to have bunch of them. Giddens may turn out to be an ok player but he wasted time this summer with his holdout and now he is behind walker at the 3 and a whole bunch of other guys at the 2. the kid looks like he has talent but I don't know where he fits right now and he may be a luxury we can't afford. as for scal he barely played last year and he is now behind powe, and miles on the depth chart. they seem to like him though and his salary is most likely a poison pill . Ed Stefanski at Philly would love to have scal but I don't think there's anyone on Philly's roster that we want that would be available. Maybe Oklahoma isfinally ready to give up on Robert Swift!

[sully00]

I actually think that makes no sense. Scal and Giddens sound like emotional choices. I get that people have a problem with Scal because he is't all that talented and a bit uncoordinated but there is nothing and there hasn't been anything for some time to suggest that Scal is going anywhere. This Scal business still sounds like somebody's unilateral wet dream.

And Giddens leaving sounds like a pipe dream. He was a first round selection. He was their choice and there's no reason to suggest he was a pick for anyone else. In fact on numerous occasions both Doc and Danny have gone out of their way to praise this kid as a playmaker at both ends of the floor. I think some people are maybe letting a lack of knowledge about Giddens and one "not-as-flattering-review-in-comparison-to-Walker" cloud judgement on a young player who is NOT Gerald Green.

Smart money still says Cassell or BBD. Davis is a free agent after who at the end of the year was beat out for minutes by Powe this year and Cassell could still stick as a coach.

I will ask you this if you ranked the players on this team based on ability to play in an NBA game right now were would Scal and Giddens land? When ever I look at roster cuts that is were I start the money should be a secondary consideration, it may be so big you have to make it the first but it should be secondary.

In this case not only are Scal and Giddens likely players 15 and 16 their contracts are enough to return a salalry in a deal.

A healthy and effective Miles is worth eating Scal's contract flat out.

As for Giddens the word was Boston was looking to use that pick on Semih Erden to avoid the guaranteed money. They would have dealt that pick if they could have. If they had used it on Erden he never would have come over it will take more than that to sign him. It is just a theory but I don't think that Giddens is valued as highly as some of you think. They were able to arrange to get Walker in the 2nd round so they burned the 1st on Giddens as a flyer. That is why they didn't sign him at first and I think they may have signed him now to package his salary with Scal to get them out of town.

I think Miles may not be good enough at this point to crack the rotation in that case there is no reason to shuffle the inactive seats behind the bench, he can go. I don't see Davis or Cassell being cut because of the position they play and the lack of depth at it.

[ryaningf]

I'm not going to make a statement about who's going to get cut or traded because I don't think even Danny knows what he's going to do. But I will make some assertions about who won't get cut or traded.

Pruitt was my pick to get the axe before training camp started. Then we hear Doc and Danny saying that they're prepared to keep 4 points, and I tend to believe them on this point. As of now, I think Cassell is probably going to spend a lot of games in leisure suits; Eddie's going to be the prime backup, and Pruitt will get spot minutes at the 1 and 2. Cassell will get activated from time to time, against teams he can exploit (teams with short backup point guards). I don't buy the argument that he's going to be made into a 'coach' right now. Perhaps later in the season if they need his roster spot and if he hasn't been playing much anyway.

I don't think there's any way Giddens gets released. I could see him going in a 2 for 1 trade, provided the second player is Scal. There's no way, in my opinion, that two prospects go in a 2 for 1: one of the reasons you give up on a JR or a Baby is not only because you need the extra roster spot, and you can get, let's say, a center in return; but it's also because you can shed a Scal. I think everyone's reading too much into his 'struggles' the first week. Rookies are supposed to struggle, and Giddens is behind the eight ball because of no summer league and no time spent in the training facility. It's going to take him time; but once he knows his role and the plays, he's going to be fine. Defense is what is going to get him on the court; his offense will be gravy his rookie season.

There's no way Walker is released or traded. This guy's making the team and he'll be contributing by Christmas if not sooner. Working out at Waltham all summer bought him tons of goodwill and great experience. And he plays a position of need--small forward.

Miles, I think, continues to be on the bubble. His health is probably the factor most important to determining the final roster. If he practices all preseason, plays in all the games, and does some typical Darius Miles things, like dunking and blocking shots and running the floor, he's going to make the team. If not, then he's gone and the most logical choice to be cut. We can still play small ball by playing Paul at the 4 and we already have great depth at power forward. We don't need Miles; keeping him would be a luxury.

Big Baby is my new hunch about who might be sent packing (if anyone's traded, I think it's him or JR with Scal). It'll be in a trade if anything, and it'll be for a backup center too. And it'll have to be a 2 for 1 (with Scal as the other player). The lack of any good news about Baby is what leads me to believe he might be being shopped right now. Other factors will be POB's ability to contribute right away or Miles ability to play backup power forward. If those two have good preseasons, then I think Baby might be sent to another team.

POB, I think, is a pretty safe bet to make the team, but he could get waived if he falters and Baby and Miles have good preseasons and Perk shows that his health is good. We went most of last year without a true 7 foot backup center and we could do it again if we had to and we could do it easily...at least until the playoffs.

Scal probably should go all things being equal, but his contract and his veteran status probably make him safe for now. He still sucks no matter which way you spin it, but he's good in the locker room and he's a decent option against certain power forwards (like Bosh). Even if he makes the team, I think he's going to spend most of the season on the inactive list.

[Jammer]

ryingf: Great words.

scully: you don't give players away that can play, and there are some TBD's still to be found out by the PUBLIC.

The depth chart is more indicative than player rank, because ultimately they must match up, and Doc's seemingly kind words can leave a lot out.

The center position is obviously weakest, with a starter, a hoped backup (POB), and a player the Cetlics list as a forward (Glen Davis) the third string center, until someone 6'10' or greater is added (since KG prefers not to play Center, even though he averaged 12 mpg at C last season). Unless a Mutombo or Joe Smith in the picture, no one will be moved at C.

PF behind Garnett is somewhat of a question, since Powe would appear to have that locked up from last season, but Miles might be able to get minutes there. Someone like a real 6'10" Joe Smith would complicate this further, Scal and Davis are excess at PF.

SF is the question, where Doc has said Paul Pierce's backup will either be Tony Allen (6' 3.5" without shoes), Darius Miles or Bill Walker. Don't assume Walker has a job yet, with Tony and Darius maybe able to handle the various situations better than Walker.

SG is similar, with Tony Allen and 6' 4" true height J.R. Giddens stuck behind Tony, but Giddens might be a player, and if so, is more valuable than posters atttribute. Last year's draft was ridiculously deep, {Miami gave Minnesota $2 million cash plus 2 second round picks for the #34 pick}.

Sam Cassell and Gabe Pruitt can also play the two offensively, and Pruitt can defend the smaller SG's.
Sam can't defend a good NCAA Division III player any more.

PG is more of who Doc will play. Besides obvious starter Rondo, Doc seems to like Sam as a scorer off the bench when Eddie is not hitting. Whether Doc really likes Sam or KG and Ray Ray lobbied for him we don't know, but Pruitt seems to be the odd man out, even though Pruitt is probably better than Sam at this stage.

So, it's still a big question mark,

but Scal & Pruitt seem to be the obvious choices, with Walker and Giddens both TBD.

Right now it sounds like the second unit, if it were to play at the end of the first or third quarter ( 8 1/2 minute mark to three minutes into the next quarter) is Eddie, Tony, Darius, Leon and POB.

[GuyClinch]

First off - I don't think Danny should have signed Sam in the first place.

There was no need as Pruitt is the superior 3rd string point. Pruitt has always looked pretty good - and he continues to look pretty good. So far (granted we have seen little of him) he has looked like a D. West kind of player with a better handle and slightly less of a 'hustle" guy..

Secondly - I dont think we can cut Miles. Miles looks superior to Scalarbine right now. Sure Scalabrine can miss from the outside - but you know what Miles can do that too. He can also score around the hoop - handle the ball a little and make some passes. If he is even 75% you got to go with Miles over Scalabrine. Also don't ignore the stick it to Portland factor. I think it really enters into it.

if that wasn't enough - on this roster Miles is one of the guys with the best standing reach. He has Poseyesque length even if now he is not even as athletic as Posey was..<g> But perhaps that will come back..

Strangely with the addition of Cassell Danny has made a mess of the roster. I think talentwise Pruitt and Miles are keepers - and BBD, Scala and Sam are the guys you would try to dump. With Cassell's recent signing he is probably off the table.

So that leaves BBD and Scalabrine. I have a feeling one of those guys won't be back.. Danny is kinda hoping this problem sorts itself out. But I don't think it will. He is going to have to make a tough decision.


Sidenote:

As far as Giddens - first round pick so I doubt he goes anywhere. I think guys with versatile games (think Joe Johnson) can take a while to get going. That versatility can actually make you play a bit tentative out there like Joe did with us.. We shouldn't make that kind of mistake again.. (Not that Walker is like Kedrick)...

Yes I suppose he is redundant with this roster - but you should add talented guys to your roster. At that spot in the draft you get guys you think can play in the NBA.

Pete