The bench!

[billfromBoston]

I guess I'll just continue to stick up for Glen Davis, he keeps on earning minutes, playing hard, and he really is a physical presence in the paint. If the Celtics bring in Mutumbo... Davis is going to get a lot of time at his natural position as a PF, where he'll be more effective offensive rebounding and finishing around the basket. Plus, as a second year player he still has a lot of room to grow in terms of gaining confidence and skills.

Tony Allen, I believe, has been hands down the best bench player. Just watch him defensively. He stays in front of his man, he plays the passing lanes, he is great closing out on shooters, he's a good help defender. Offensively he's opportunistic and an aggressive slasher.

Powe and House have performed solidly in the pinch of energy and offense off the bench roles. They're both excellent situational subs with some limitations against certain matchups/teams.

Mutumbo would completely solidify the club, allowing Doc to use Davis and Powe in more situational roles... which is really what they're capable of.

Pruitt and Cassell will fight it out for 5th backcourt player. Beyond that, I think that the Celtics are absolutely rock solid.

One of the biggest misconceptions is that somehow Davis would be more effective at the 4 - nothing he does well offensively would be positively impacted by this - his most effective offense is face-up situations, utilizing the jumper or faking and driving. His O-boards and post moves always land him in the tall trees, where both bigs are waiting for him. he has no lift and no length, so he isn't going to be posting anybody in this league consistently no matter where he plays.

Defensively, Davis is substantially more limited when defending faster players. His perimeter defense against true 4's will suffer greatly and his rebounding isn't going to change regardless...

Davis isn't that good, its a simple as that - and until he hones his face-up jumper so it is lethal, he is going to be the same player we've seen all year - a hustle guy with limited skills...

[billfromBoston]

I disagree Cyclical and it would seem that Doc does as well. Davis has consistently been the first big off the bench for the Celtics, subbing for both Perkins or Garnett. Due to the lack of a true backup Center, Davis has been forced into that role with Powe as his undersized frontcourt mate. I think if Davis is allowed to move back to his natural position of Power Forward he'll be much more productive because he'll be shooting over PF's rather than C's. Also his defense has been really, really solid on the post and he understands his role. Powe is a situational sub who's more or less useless against tall, strong defensive players. He suffers from mental lapses on the defense (something you never see out of Davis) and his only defense against big 4's and 5's is to flop, in the playoffs you're not gonna get that call.

Davis has the opportunity to carve out a role even if the Celtics acquire Dikembe and I can almost guarantee that he'll still be seeing floor time if/when that happens. (Of course Davis will play less minutes but so will Powe, IMO, they'll both be used situationally.)

Leon Powe is a superior power forward to Glen Davis in every imaginable AND measurable way - this is blind allegiance in the face of reality - Powe is the better scorer, rebounder, finisher, athlete, FT generator, post player, face-up attack threat, off-ball cutter...he's even statistically a better shooter....

Davis has been getting more minutes despite no appreciable improvement in his play....he is being shopped and will not re-sign with the Celtics this off-season, so rightly so...

[elrod enchilada]

I am with BfB on the Big Baby issue. He strikes me as, more or less, a thick and short Scalabrine. i.e. a guy who plays hard and plays good position defense. A smart guy, too. But, like Scal, Big Baby simply does not have the explosion and skill set to be an effective NBA player. His lack of height really hurts him -- he seems a lot closer to 6-5 or 6-6 than to 6-9 --and I have been shocked at his woeful rebounding and inability to score. He has regressed in his second year, which historically is the indicator of a player who is not going to make it. If he can hit a consistent jumper, maybe even add a 3 pointer, he will have a decade in the league as a journeyman back-up, but that is his upside. I do not see him as part of the Cs future, and he is only part of the present in the absence of any back-up 5.

I suspect the Cs may even let him walk in the off-season and not even match any offers he might get.

Leon is a definite keeper. I have been a tad disappointed in his play this year, because he was so brilliant over the final third of last year's regular season. But he has improved as a defender and as a passer. (True, he only had one direction to do in that department.) He needs to spend the entire off-season honing his 15-18 foot jump shot -- Paul Millsap anyone? -- and his handle. I think he can be a superb back-up 4 for the next three or four years.

But, as with BfB and others, I think we have real problems with our bench looking ahead to the playoffs. Mutombo would be terrific. I trust Danny has all but taken out Congolese citizenship papers in order to lure him to the Cs. He is really needed.

I think the other need is a guy who defend big 3s. I am higher on Tony Allen than BfB, but he is overmatched by players 6-7 and above.

I will take a pass on Marbury. I am not sure what to do about back-up point. Maybe even let Gabe get a crack at it. I like what I see of Gabe's D; I would like to see how he handles defensive pressure.

I do know this much: Doc had better wise up and realize that Rondo is very young and a world class athlete. It is high time to stop babying him with minutes. He should play 36-40 mpg right now. He can play 40-42 minutes per night once we get to the playoffs. Even 44-45 in a pinch. Give Rondo two or three minutes off surrounding the quarter breaks in the first and second halves: the standard superstar treatment. There are even more and longer TV timeouts in the playoffs and the game tends to slow down. If Doc plays the Roadrunner serious superstar minutes, then the issue of a back-up becomes a tad less pressing. It becomes a greater issue when Doc has RR riding the pine for 15-18 minutes per game, for no plausible reason. It reminds me of when John McLeod had Paul Westphal playing 32-33 mpg back in the late 70s when Westphal arguably was the best guard in the league. It probably cost the Suns one trip to the finals, if not a title.

Rondo is the one player the Cs need on the court as much as possible. He is critical to the team's success, and the drop-off from Rondo to any other point guard is massive. It is painful to see long stretches when the Cs have Rondo on the bench and the team is floundering on the floor. The route to 18 has the Roadrunner at the steering wheel. When he is on his game we can play with anyone; when he is off his game or riding the bnech we are going to be imminently beatable by the Clevelands and LAs of the league.

[jfs1000d]

The Celtics are 24-2. Why on earth are we obsessed about the bench?

The bench doesn't play in big games. The Celtics don't have a second unit. They just are looking for guys to rotate in and add some things. Powe has been good, TA very good, House ok and everyone else is filler.

This is old school hoops. The second unit is terrible. But, the design by doc is always to have one of the big 3 in, so the second unit rarely gets more than a couple of runs up and down the court.

Baby plays because he was lucky enough to be drafted to the Celtics. That means he is cheap,. knows the offense, and plays hard. Why get someone else when they don't need more than Baby is giving?

It's called role players. Guys like House, Powe, Big Baby and even Perkins, feed off the stars. These guys have adapted their games to play with the Big 3 and Rondo.


My point is this is the what it is supposed to be. Great team don't have second units. That's because there is such a fall off from the starters on a great team to the bench that it makes little sense to invest in another starting 5.

Second units are for losing teams that don't have good enough players.

A real pro NBA has a bench filled with players to complement the stars.

Celts got it almost perfect. They have a slasher/scorer and athlete in TA. They have a shooter in House. They have a low post threat in Powe and a banger in big baby.

That's 9 players. 10-15 is irrelevant. Scal, Pruitt, O'Bryant are just filler and " just in case players."

And, scal is valuable because he shuts up and has a positive attitude. You think Marbury will be happy sitting the pine?

Don't underestimate professionalism.

[elrod enchilada]

I beg to disagree. This is a great Cs team, and it will almost certainly reach the conference finals. But Cleveland and the Lakers are exceptional teams, too, that easily qualify as championship caliber. They are almost certain 60 plus win teams, as are we. Danny is not content to have a great regular season and then lose out in the playoffs; he has to be thinking of exactly the issues BfB raises and that this board is discussing. It can be the difference between winning a title of being a bridesmaid.

Recall that back in the 1980s the Cs had a team that was a legitimate champion at least 8 years -- 1980-87 -- but we only won three titles. We had truly great teams in 1982 and 1985 that did not win titles. Teams that dominated much like this year's Cs. We might have even won in 87 had the Lakers not tweaked their roster and picked up Mychal Thompson. (The injuries just killed us in 87, too.) We did not win 5-7 titles because in the early 80s the 76ers were also tremendous, much like the Cavs are now. And throughout the decade the Lakers were awesome. In another decade that 80s Cs team would have probably racked up 5-7 titles. In the 80s. as it was, we only got three.

So Danny definitely needs to be thinking about match-ups with the Cavs and the Lakers and about tweaking the team for the play-offs. The Cs may be a better team this year (or may not), but we know the competition is going to be much better. Cleveland is downright scary.

[humblebum]

Well like I said we'll see what happens as far as trading Davis goes because right now he's beating Leon Powe out for minutes... just like Davis did at the beginning of his rookie year (were the Celtics shopping Davis then too?).

BFB, you really mean to say that Davis wouldn't do better if he was allowed to play Powe's role near the basket? Davis has played outside this season in order to try to create better spacing with the second unit. He's used primarily in pick and pop situations. That means he's had less opportunities on dump off passes and less offensive rebound opportunities.

When Davis was successful last year it was inside on dump off passes and offensive rebounds. See the game against Detroit. I agree that for him to develop into a true rotation player he's going to need to develop the mid-range shot but to say that moving him back to PF and putting him near the basket wouldn't help his game is foolhardy. He's playing out of position and he's looking to develop his game from the outside in rather than vica versa. Bring in Joe Smith and Davis can get back to doing the dirty work inside, while Smith spreads the floor.

Is there really any debate that Davis is the better defender between he and Powe? I know that people have serious mancrushes on Leon but he's a situational sub through and through on a contending team. He's ineffective against the Varejaos of the world on both ends of the court.

[Red2]

I agree our bench needs help but you have to consider that if you trade some guys and make a change you'r e messing with chemistry that has produced a 24-2 record. also unless you bring PJ back whoever joins us will take a while to learn our defense. I agree that Baby has a limited upside and that TOny while OK hasn't had the year ( so far) we all hoped he would have. He is still too inconsistent although he plays hard when he's in there. The person we need is playing for the hornets now . what we really need is a leader on the bench- someone who can get a basket when they need it and also be a vocal leader on defense. Eddie probably comes closest to being that guy . I would love to see what Pruitt, Walker and Giddens would do given minutes. Kirilinko would be a great fit for us but there's no way we can fit his $15 M salary into our lineup. My number one choice would be to get PJ back. After that Mutumbo. Joe SMith would be a nice pickup but the price might be too high.

[Dave_From_NB]

The Celtics are 24-2. Why on earth are we obsessed about the bench?

The bench doesn't play in big games. The Celtics don't have a second unit. They just are looking for guys to rotate in and add some things. Powe has been good, TA very good, House ok and everyone else is filler.

This is old school hoops. The second unit is terrible. But, the design by doc is always to have one of the big 3 in, so the second unit rarely gets more than a couple of runs up and down the court.

My personal concern with the bench is not related to the few minutes they get when everyone is heathy, it's the large minutes particular bench players get when a starter is not available.

I think there are some positions where the Celts are very exposed, a shoulder injury with Perk, a twisted ankle with Rondo, anything with Pierce, and frankly I'd say given our current depth, championship aspirations would be over. These issues need to be resolved before player moves are shut down before the playoffs.

[Red2]

cleveland has a size advantage with ilgauskas and varejoa but if they were to trade varejao as has been rumored ( for shawn Marion) I think they would lose some of their adge. No doubt Marion is a great player but he is getting older and has been injured. To me the Cavs biggest weakness is still the lack of scoring once you get past James. SUre they got williams and he can hurt you but in a half court game where do they go for points? That's probably why they're considering the trade for marion. That would give them 3 legitimate scorers much the way we have 3. LeBron is a spectacular player but at the end I would rather have Pierce who can get to the line and comes up big when it matters

[Jammer]

What a debate.

Elrod, I'm not in favor of playing Rajon major minutes.
It increases the chance of injury, especially the way he plays.
I think that Doc is using Rajon perfectly.

I agree the Celtics might very well let BBD walk this summer.

In the meantime, a true backup C for use against Cleveland and the Lakers is imperative.

I do believe that Dekembe will sign on,
if not,
the best attainable Big Man is probably Joe Smith for Scal + Giddens.

As far as trade proposals,
for a backup SF,
how about unhappy Grant Hill in Phoenix,
who signed for the LLE (he's in the second year).
Would you believe that any two of Pruitt, Davis, Giddens, Cassell for Grant Hill works!!!

To free a roster spot,
how about J. R. Giddens to Memphis for Lakers 2010 1rst Round Pick!!!
or (if Mutombo signs)
Glen Davis to New Orleans for 2010 2nd Round Pick or
Glen Davis to Dallas for 2009 2nd Round Pick

[klemen4]

BOS:CHI

Again we had problems with the second unit, they lost 10 points first quarter advantage and played really bad. I was happy Pruitt was in rotation finally but I dont know why he wasnt pg, and Eddie sg...seems like a logical offensive scheme. Big Baby again played bad, made 3 silly fouls, looked unfocused...Powe gave us no offense, so only Allen was ok in that 2 quarter.

We need to upgrade the bench:
1) Mutombo we really need you
2) Powe must develop offensive game and midrange jumprer
3) Allen must be consistant
4) Im ok with House
5) Pruitt need more minutes an MUST play pg

[BillessuR6]

The bench was TERRIBLE last night! And it has been for quite a few games now. I don`t care if they have trouble scoring but to look so uninspired, lethargic on the floor is unacceptable. The defense was horrendous!

Glen Davis was ridiculously bad! I have no idea why Doc put him in in the second half he was beyond awful in the first. With the way he has been playing Doc should throw him out of rotation and give his minutes to POB. Sure, O`Brant can`t play but Davis doesn`t deserve to be our back up center! I really hope we trade him because I can watch him anymore. Can˙t wait for Mutombo.

I like the fact that Pruitt got some minutes instead of Scal but I agree he should be running the point and not Eddie. That made no sense...I really think it is time we bring JR or Walker back. There is no way they can play worse than our bench is playing ATM.

Hopefully Danny can make a trade for Joe Smith or even Wilcox, they are both on the block. I was against signing Marbury but after watching the last few games I would be OK with it. Heck, I would be OK with Antoine coming back.

I understand in the playoffs we won`t be playing our whole second unit at the same time but still we need to add a few peaces. Mutombo, PJ or Joe Smith, back up SF and maybe even a scorer like marbury...I am interested in seeing what Danny will do, there is no doubt that he will upgrade the bench before playoffs...

[Man_Up]

It's official our bench sucks. There are too many holes, and the players don't play well enough together, as a unit. The only players off our bench who deserve consistent minutes are Powe, House, and Allen. Unfortunately Allen can't dribble the ball well enough to handle pg duties, and isn't tall enough to be a small forward. and he can't shoot. House is too short to play shooting guard, and doesn't have enough ball handling ability to play the point. Powe is solid, but he shouldn't be playing alongside BBD they do a lot of the same stuff, but Powe is just flat out better.

As individual players they aren't too bad, but together it's a horrible unit. There aren't enough shooters to open up the lane for a TA or Powe. There isn't enough size to play solid defense against a solid low post player. We need to add a guy who can shoot the 3 decently and a true big man who can defend. Pruitt might be the guy who can shoot, now we need the big man.

[ryaningf]

Davis has been getting more minutes despite no appreciable improvement in his play....he is being shopped and will not re-sign with the Celtics this off-season, so rightly so...

I know you're in the industry, so I was wondering if you could clarify this remark: is Baby being shopped by the Cs (and you have first hand knowledge) or do you think he's being shopped (because it makes sense, even though you have no first hand knowledge)? My impression is that the Cs would trade him if it brought back better players or better fits (like a 7 footer who could man the backup 5 spot), but that they won't just give him away for the sake of it--he's still valuable, though not ideal for this team.

I still think there's a chance he gets resigned next season. I don't think teams are going to beat down his door, and he knows the Cs and is a nice part of their great chemistry. Powe will get more, Powe will be the priority, but I don't think that necessarily means Baby's out the door. Lots of things could happen to keep him in the fold.

[ryaningf]

Leon is a definite keeper. I have been a tad disappointed in his play this year, because he was so brilliant over the final third of last year's regular season. But he has improved as a defender and as a passer. (True, he only had one direction to do in that department.) He needs to spend the entire off-season honing his 15-18 foot jump shot -- Paul Millsap anyone? -- and his handle. I think he can be a superb back-up 4 for the next three or four years.

I really like Powe, but I'd really like to see him improve his vision out there. When the ball's in his hands, the offense dies a slow death if he doesn't have a good shot. Powe's a black hole--nothing comes out. A huge part of the 2nd team's shortcoming is lack of ball movement--the ball sticks and it's not always the point guard's fault (though House is a huge culprit because his lack of point guard skill puts the offense behind the eight ball almost every trip up the court).

TA, for better or worse, is the better play maker on the 2nd unit (assuming Pruitt stays glued to the bench). What I'd like to see Doc do is to put his best low post scorer and his best creator and penetration guy together--TA and Powe--and run a ton of pick and rolls. TA's a decent decision maker in a pick-and-roll situation, he can finish well himself, and Powe has pretty good hands too. You plant House in the opposite corner, put Baby at the top of the key, and run the offense that way. Put your best players in their best position to succeed. Powe and TA need to be the focus of the 2nd unit.

I do know this much: Doc had better wise up and realize that Rondo is very young and a world class athlete. It is high time to stop babying him with minutes. He should play 36-40 mpg right now. He can play 40-42 minutes per night once we get to the playoffs. Even 44-45 in a pinch. Give Rondo two or three minutes off surrounding the quarter breaks in the first and second halves: the standard superstar treatment. There are even more and longer TV timeouts in the playoffs and the game tends to slow down. If Doc plays the Roadrunner serious superstar minutes, then the issue of a back-up becomes a tad less pressing. It becomes a greater issue when Doc has RR riding the pine for 15-18 minutes per game, for no plausible reason. It reminds me of when John McLeod had Paul Westphal playing 32-33 mpg back in the late 70s when Westphal arguably was the best guard in the league. It probably cost the Suns one trip to the finals, if not a title.

Rondo is the one player the Cs need on the court as much as possible. He is critical to the team's success, and the drop-off from Rondo to any other point guard is massive. It is painful to see long stretches when the Cs have Rondo on the bench and the team is floundering on the floor. The route to 18 has the Roadrunner at the steering wheel. When he is on his game we can play with anyone; when he is off his game or riding the bench we are going to be imminently beatable by the Clevelands and LAs of the league.

Great point. I don't buy the injury concerns. Rondo makes this team go! He should playing as much as the big 3 do; in fact, he should be the bridge between the 1st and 2nd teams, instead of Ray or Paul. That gives Ray and Paul more rest, and also keeps the flow going. One of the problems of the 2nd team is when Eddie comes in and the offense just slows down because he's a terrible point guard. It's not just that it hurts the 2nd team, it also infects the 1st team when they come back in--if the 2nd team had bad flow, the starters usually can't recreate the good flow--they have to wait until the 2nd half to start it again. We need Rondo regulating the flow with the 2nd team, not only does it help the transition back to the starters, it also helps the 2nd team, TA and Powe especially.

[Dave_From_NB]

In the first half, the bench had zero rebounds. Davis and Powe sat at the half with zero points, and zero rebounds. A total of one defensive rebound for Davis and Powe for the game. Just not good enough for our bigs. Help, or at least change over to POB in the middle, is needed.

[klemen4]

LAL:BOS

I started this topic week ago and in this hard games we again s that we have really poor bench!

Again Im only satisfied with House and Powe as the only bench layers I would keep.

Tony Allen...every game same story:
-offensive fouls
-no long range shot
-going out of bounce
-poor ballhandling

The problem is we can not relie on our bench.
- C
Mutombo looks like the only option.

- defensive tall sf with range
Package of Scal, Allen+ one of (Giddens, Pruit,Walker) for ? Have no idea.
I dont know why we are not interested in Bonzi Wells(get him back from china)

- one player that can create his own shot
Marbury is a gamble I would take.

Well 2 month till trade deadline...Danny must find some players.

[jfs1000d]

Desperately need a backup center that has length and a tall athletic swingman.

We are woefully short on the bench and undersized except for O'Bryant.

I like TA and House, but the ball handling after Rondo isn't great. Starting 5 is perfect, but the bench just didn't have enough firepower. I would say Mutombo and perhaps a trade is in order.

Danny knows this. We are short an athletic SF/wing and scorer from the bench.

[N-V-da-Green]

our bench sucks! House is not a point and this year with out Posey vet leadership we are depnding on him to run the show but half the time someone else is bring the ball up! BBD and Powe are to damn small to be a threat to black shots. Plus TA is to inconnsitant play is driving me crazy! TA is better when he plays with the 1st unit beacuse they sag off him or put a weaker defender on him. Dont think he is ready to be the Man on the 2nd unit. I really wanna see Pruit and Ob play some meaningful mins and see if we can better our weak bench. Cavs and the Laker bench will kill ours in a 7 game set.
Most teams have been playing the starters aganist our bench cuz they suck.

[Banks2Pierce]

Tony Allen is good on defense, but here is the problem:

Our two biggest rivals are Cleveland and LA.

They have Lebron and Kobe. TA doesn't have the length to stop these two guys. They easily shoot over him.

I am hoping to work Giddens or Walker into the rotation. They both have outside shots that are better than Tony's. Other teams can back up off of Tony 5 feet because he is going to dribble right into them and they can draw the charge or wait for him to flip it up there. The scouting report is out.

I love Tony and I think he is fantastic against pretty much every other SG/SF in the league. I'm fine sticking Tony on Iverson, Hamilton, Joe Johnson, etc., but he doesn't have the length to be effective against those two guys.

I hope it has been the ankle injury that has been hobbling Tony lately, because he has digressed since the beginning of the season.