some thoughts on the Cs gping forward

[drza]

This is why I will always think KG is overrated and probably will never appreciate him as much as I should. This whole post summarizes everything I've not liked about some or most fans' opinions in Boston since KG and Allen came here. KG didn't change any culture in my honest opinion.

It is interesting that the remainder of your post is a defense of Pierce and his game, as though saying that KG changed the culture in Boston is shortchanging the Captain...when in reality, the Captain is the person who started the whole "KG changed the culture" thing. KG always got a lot of credit for the improvement in Boston, but it wasn't until Pierce used the phrase "KG changed the culture around here" that it became the commonly used expression that it is today.

What's up with the defense in Minny all these years? Coming to Boston, he finally felt like influencing people to play defense? No...it was Coach Thibo. Coach Thibo changed the culture of the Celtics and made them a defensive team. I bet you if Pierce and Allen went to Minny, that team would have become an offensive team with decent to good defense. Without Thibo, we do not have a top 5 defense last year.

Coach Thibo surely made a difference. But to say that KG never influenced his team to play defense is false. A certain amount of raw material is needed for anyone to lead a defense to do anything. In Minnesota KG routinely worked with guards that were among the worst man-to-man defenders in the NBA, unathletic wings, and big men like Rasho and Olowokandi. The one time he played on a team with players even remotely physically capable of playing defense (Old Erv Johnson at C, Hassell and Spree on the wings, and Cassell at the PG) the Wolves were one of the better team defenses in the league. Perk and Rondo are like steroid-versions of Johnson and Hassell as defensive lieutenants, Pierce is a more athletic/better defender than Spree in that role, and Allen (presumably the weak link) is a dramatically more athletic/better defender than Cassell. On both offense and defense, the 07-08 Celtics was structured similarly to the 03-04 Timberwolves...but with MUCH more talent at those positions. Consequently, the teams played similar styles, but the Celtics were just the much better team. But again, there is a precedent for a KG-led team looking like these Cs...you can only lead a team with some ability to follow you.

[DarkAzcura]

I did say in my post that I probably don't appreciate what Garnett has done for the C's enough, but I only do it because I feel like people give Garnett 100% of the credit.

While Pierce said that Garnett changed the culture, Garnett also said that Pierce was the MVP of this team.

[drza]

I did say in my post that I probably don't appreciate what Garnett has done for the C's enough, but I only do it because I feel like people give Garnett 100% of the credit.

While Pierce said that Garnett changed the culture, Garnett also said that Pierce was the MVP of this team.

Actually, KG said that Pierce would get his vote for MVP of the league, which isn't exactly the same thing. But either way, KG's never scrimped on showing his admiration for Pierce's game and scoring skill...and that really doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand.

The post that you took issue with said (paraphrase) that KG changed the Celtics culture, giving the entire team an edgy and defensive bent and inspiring everyone to play harder and more unselfishly with an eye towards a championship. Everything that anyone within the Celtics organization has said...from Doc, to announcers like Gorman, to Pierce, to Powe, to Baby, to anyone else that has weighed in on the subject has agreed on that point. They all gave KG credit for changing the culture (using different words...Pierce was the only one that used that exact phrase) and fostering an environment of more preparation, more focus, more unselfishness, and more defensive intensity...the hallmarks of this team.

In fact, I'd bet that if you listed the general characteristics of this Celtics team: defensive oriented, unselfish, edgy, efficient but not dominant offense, intense...PRIOR to 2007, if you're honest, you wouldn't have used that combination of words to describe Pierce, or Allen, or any of the other players on this Celtics team except Kevin Garnett. Who may or may not be the best player on the court is a different discussion, but I don't think that KG's influence on the way the Celtics play ball is really up for debate.

[wigglestrue]

Tim Duncan
Yao Ming
Brandon Roy
Tony Parker
Chris Bosh
Amare Stoudemire
Carlos Boozer
Deron Williams
Dirk Nowitzki

Jesus Christ, elrod.

[exculpatory]

Elrod, You are one very erudite, literate dude, but you have seriously underestimated the value and skills of our Captain (a common practice on this board for many years which abated somewhat when he won the goddam FINALS MVP in June 2008).

Paul Pierce is shooting the eye out of the basket in the last couple of games (averaging close to 30 ppg, shooting 70%!!! [19-27] including 9 makes behind the arc and numerous step-back Js, slashing to the hoop at will, making 95% of his FTs), and his PPG is now over 19 and his shooting percentage is rising rapidly (43.5% now). During our winning streak, he chose to focus on rebounding, assisting, defending and chose to score less - consistent with the complete, unselfish, team player he has become since the arrival of the cavalry last year. Although his shooting percentage was down during the first third of the year - let's also not forget that he turned it on and took over the game in Q4 in at least 10 games during the first 30 games of the season. This bodes well for us - as it indicates that he has lost NOTHING. NET PER aside, only Lebron, Kobe and DWade rank a smidge ahead of him as wings in the NBA - a 30-40 player??? are you frigging kidding me??? have you been ingesting hallucinogens???

As Tommy H has been saying for years, and as written by Bob Ryan in the Globe last week, Paul Pierce is the most proficient, multitalented, multifaceted scorer (not player) in the history of one of the most storied franchises in all of sports. In about 800 points, he will pass 18,245 and the Chief, and become the third leading scorer in the history of the Boston Celtics. KG changed the culture and attitude of this team with his intensity, RA is smooth as butter when he is on, but Paul Pierce remains the most valuable, indispensable player on this team.

[elrod enchilada]

Wow, I did not expect top tap such a nerve with this post.

For starters, I said KG is a top 10-12 player, but I said that after the top five one could debate the next 8-10 slots. Frankly, on just about any other board that would not be an especially controversial point, and it does not mean I do not love or appreciate KG. I think in a trade for the balance of the season I would probably rank him 6th, but his game is now in the same range as guys ranking in the 6-12 overall. His top 5 days are in his rear view mirror.

But he is still the best defensive player in the league and a force of nature.

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/r ... index.html

Likewise, I love Paul. After the last few games he looks like a top 15 player. But for many games before that he looked like a top 50 player. So I split the difference. I will say this: if Paul ramps it up in April, May and, we hope, June, I will be the first to acknowledge that he has been rope-a-doping us during his off-games in the regular season. When Paul is "on," he is a wonderful player. You won't find me trashing him. Ever. I just tried to assess him from how he looks compared to past seasons, and his play has not been as strong overall. I do think we are going to need the superstar Paul all the time to get past Cleveland and LA (or whoever beats LA out west) in the playoffs. So far in this season, I do not think we can necessarily bank on it.

If we do not win flag 18 in 2009, I doubt, in the end, it will necessarily be because of the play of KG and PP. It will more likely be one of three factors:

1. the bench and its many flaws, all of which we have chronicled in depressing detail.

2. Rondo not being Rondo because he fails to develop or teams figure out a way to take him out of his game. I adore Rondo and think he will be an all-pro in two or three years. That may not be soon enough.

3. or, most depressing, because the Cavs or the Spurs or the Lakers are simply better than us. That is how good those teams are; we do not control our fate, like we did last season. This is more like 1984 or 1987 than 1986. That is why we have a much smaller margin of error and any slippage may well prove fatal come May or June. For that reason home court advantage is of the utmost importance.

[cisco]

Elrod, You are one very erudite, literate dude, but you have seriously underestimated the value and skills of our Captain (a common practice on this board for many years which abated somewhat when he won the goddam FINALS MVP in June 2008).

Paul Pierce is shooting the eye out of the basket in the last couple of games (averaging close to 30 ppg, shooting 70%!!! [19-27] including 9 makes behind the arc and numerous step-back Js, slashing to the hoop at will, making 95% of his FTs), and his PPG is now over 19 and his shooting percentage is rising rapidly (43.5% now). During our winning streak, he chose to focus on rebounding, assisting, defending and chose to score less - consistent with the complete, unselfish, team player he has become since the arrival of the cavalry last year. Although his shooting percentage was down during the first third of the year - let's also not forget that he turned it on and took over the game in Q4 in at least 10 games during the first 30 games of the season. This bodes well for us - as it indicates that he has lost NOTHING. NET PER aside, only Lebron, Kobe and DWade rank a smidge ahead of him as wings in the NBA - a 30-40 player??? are you frigging kidding me??? have you been ingesting hallucinogens???

As Tommy H has been saying for years, and as written by Bob Ryan in the Globe last week, Paul Pierce is the most proficient, multitalented, multifaceted scorer (not player) in the history of one of the most storied franchises in all of sports. In about 800 points, he will pass 18,245 and the Chief, and become the third leading scorer in the history of the Boston Celtics. KG changed the culture and attitude of this team with his intensity, RA is smooth as butter when he is on, but Paul Pierce remains the most valuable, indispensable player on this team.

Totally agree. Rating Pierce so low based on a handful of games where he didn't shoot the ball particularly well, but came though when needed is um, dumb. It's only been a few months since he won finals MVP for crying out loud.

[exculpatory]

Likewise, I love Paul. After the last few games he looks like a top 15 player.

No, he looks like a top 3 wing player and a top 10 overall of late.

But for many games before that he looked like a top 50 player. So I split the difference.

Elrod, my erudite and thoughtful friend, you continue to vastly underestimate his abilities and performance during that period of time. As stated in my earlier post: "During our winning streak, he chose to focus on rebounding, assisting, & defending and chose to score less - consistent with the complete, unselfish, team player he has become since the arrival of the cavalry last year. Although his shooting percentage was down during the first third of the year - let's also not forget that he turned it on and took over the game in Q4 in at least 10 games during the first 30 games of the season. This bodes well for us - as it indicates that he has lost NOTHING. NET PER aside, only Lebron, Kobe and DWade rank a smidge ahead of him as wings in the NBA."

This does NOT make him a top 50 player during the first 30 games. It makes him a top 10 complete, unselfish, team player who chose to focus on defense, assists, and rebounds more than scoring, and who took over at least 10 games and won them for us when his prodigious scoring abilities became necessary.

I will say this: if Paul ramps it up in April, May and, we hope, June, I will be the first to acknowledge that he has been rope-a-doping us during his off-games in the regular season. When Paul is "on," he is a wonderful player. You won't find me trashing him. Ever. I just tried to assess him from how he looks compared to past seasons, and his play has not been as strong overall. I do think we are going to need the superstar Paul all the time to get past Cleveland and LA (or whoever beats LA out west) in the playoffs. So far in this season, I do not think we can necessarily bank on it.

Superstar Paul will be there for us. Bank on it.

If we do not win flag 18 in 2009, I doubt, in the end, it will necessarily be because of the play of KG and PP. It will more likely be one of three factors:

1. the bench and its many flaws, all of which we have chronicled in depressing detail.

Agreed.

2. Rondo not being Rondo because he fails to develop or teams figure out a way to take him out of his game. I adore Rondo and think he will be an all-pro in two or three years. That may not be soon enough.

Agreed.

3. or, most depressing, because the Cavs or the Spurs or the Lakers are simply better than us. That is how good those teams are; we do not control our fate, like we did last season. This is more like 1984 or 1987 than 1986. That is why we have a much smaller margin of error and any slippage may well prove fatal come May or June. For that reason home court advantage is of the utmost importance.

Agreed. However, once Saint Danny gets us Marbury and a PJ Brown clone, we will handle Bronsters, the Duncanites and the Fakers.