Tony Allen, Leon and more

[GreenGrizz]

Powe looks badly distracted. Maybe home problem?

[humblebum]

Powe looks badly distracted. Maybe home problem?

Davis cried on the bench on national TV not too long ago. Maybe he was suffering from depression and finally found the right east asian alternative therapy to cure his deep suffering and perpetual loneliness.

[GreenGrizz]

Are you kidding? Big Baby was quite a popular man with women at LSU.

[humblebum]

And while Baby was getting laid at LSU, Leon was raising his 17 younger brothers in sisters, he was a preacher at his local church, and he even twice saved kittens who were stuck up in trees. Maybe that's why people continue to make excuses for the guys lack of improvement and consistency as a 26 year old 3rd year pro...

[GreenGrizz]

Well, let's hope Powe is not losing his old self.

[humblebum]

Powe is basically the same player he's always been. An undersized, interior scorer with a good motor. He has clear value in certain situations against certain opponents. He's not a superior talent to Davis, he just does more of the things that most fans find appealing. And given a good front court mate, like Big Z or Yao he could really excel... next to Garnett he doesn't cover enough of Garnett's weaknesses, primarily related to bodying up bigger, more physical post presences.

[Dave_From_NB]

The problem with the whole argument about Powe or Davis being more effective, is that nobody has any idea which one (or both or none) are going to play effectively in their next game. At this point in their career, they're both solidly on the bench, and in terms of meriting starter minutes, behind Scal. They're a bit redundant in terms of both being undersized and inconsistent, unfortunately at this point we need both of them because neither one gives a good performance every game. And because of deficiencies in their games, neither one of them is the right sub against all circumstances and all teams.

This quote attributed to KG in the Herald today pretty much sums it up:

"Kevin Garnett admits he still doesn’t always know what to expect from his bench.

“Baby and Leon (Powe) are hit and miss,” he said."

[billfromBoston]

I think you are wishing a little there LTF.

To start I don't know that either are particularly going to be a FA target but this was the bonus year on Leon, this off season Baby is cost controlled limited to the MLE, Leon is not both are restricted FAs. This team is not paying either of these guys more than the MLE exception so early bird vs bird does not matter. They both will likely be back on team friendly deals or QO's.

As far as value I think the complete opposite is true. The league is full of perimeter oriented big men and teams like Toronto who cannot score at all in the paint. Leon is stat stuffing pile of explosion that can fill that void. Boston has KG, Perk, Pierce, and Rondo to play in the paint they need Big Baby to stretch the D and play a little center as well as pass the ball a little. Those are skills that can be found other places and don't belong exclusively to a fat man. In the end Baby is a combo of Leon and Scal and while not always pretty is very useful, and it is easy for an agent to print up Leon's stats and sell him as under used around the league.

I don't think that Boston has any interest in moving a 6'4" pg who can shoot and defend and is under contract, Pruitt stays.

Boston has made a pretty concerted effort to keep KG OUT of the post and the bump-and-grind that comes with it actually...they are developing Perkins and Powe to be the mashers so KG can play more of the high-post/elbow game that will prolong his career.

KG's post touches are limited to specific moments in a game now, which is for the best if we want him anchoring the F/C position past his current deal. I think there is a lot of Karl Malone in KG, so getting an additional 3 years out of him isn't out of the question - this will require solid role-playing bigs who can do the dirty work inside offensively - both Powe and Perk represent this.

One of the main reasons I think Davis is trade bait - aside from the teams active pursuit of a back up center, Davis' poor efficiency offensively, (i'll show you those stats again Sully.), Powe's better production at the PF spot, and their respective roles on this team - is my belief that the team has ear-marked this coming off-season to add an impact veteran F/C off the bench, Rasheed Wallace.

While many over at Celticsblog have found it convenient to rip Ainge this past off-season for not spending money on a "quality" vet big, the crop of bigs this off-season is substantially better. A GMs job is to look at all the years a player may impact his roster and budget - Ainge was smart to play the waiver wire this year and hold out for the better FA crop.

I fully believe that Rasheed Wallace will be a Celtic next season - a 3 year deal at MLE money...Sheed is the GOD version of BBD as far as defense and floor spacing goes...Powe is a muscle man inside, like Perk, and will probably take a similar 5 year developmental path to becoming a consistent offensive threat - we're in year 3 now...a 4 year deal at 2.5 to 3 mill annually coupled with Sheed at 5 to 5.5 only puts 7.5 to 8.5 on the books...now, looking at Ray and Paul's deals coming up, the team can re-sign both at around 6-8 million a season most likely, which will shave anywhere from 20-24 million off the books...if the team re-signs Rondo for 8 mill a year and they re-up Powe with Sheed you're looking at 4-8 million to add a quality complement to the squad...if they allow either Pierce or Allen to walk, they are looking at 10-16 million roughly...

The rest of the team is on rookie deals for 3 more years or low money short-term deals that expire next season:

Perk/Powe/Walker/Giddens/Pruitt would represent 5 roster spots at roughly 12-14 million - great cost effectiveness...Rondo/KG/Sheed will be 30 million in that key FA season...that's 8 roster spots taken care of, with more draft picks and vet minimum filler players to help make up the other 4-5 slots needed to get to 13...the final spots will be filled by a FA acquisition who can grow with Rondo...

If Glen Davis becomes absolutely money at that face-up jumper I can see him staying possibly, but I just see the team going hard after Wallace based off their continued pursuit of players who fulfill Davis' exact role in the offense and rotation...no rumors have come about the team looking for a post threat....

[billfromBoston]

Lets get one thing straight: it's shortsighted for people to have written off Glen Davis due to starting off his second season in the NBA shooting the ball poorly. Glen shoots the ball poorly in the beginning of the season, when he's trying to integrate a mid-range shot for the FIRST TIME in his NBA career and he's labeled as a chucker and terrible shooter. Powe has a few bad weeks and he's "in a slump". Let's be honest here people, this is pure unadulterated bias in favor of Powe.

--I don't know about other people, but I didn't "write off" anyone. but I take exception to a player who continues to take shots in key situations of games when he just isn't consistent enough to justify the shot. Davis makes poor decisions with when to use his shot in games. The fact that he was successful against Orlando does not erase the total body of work he has displayed. He IS a terrible shooter, and until he consistently knocks that shot down I will continue to criticize him when he takes them in lieu of better options.

Also, Powe's BODY OF WORK makes his past few weeks a "slump" while Davis' TOTAL BODY OF WORK makes him more open to criticism of his game. Davis has never been a consistently efficient offensive player. He does some "little things" well, but you still have to be statistically productive to play 15-20 minutes a night. Just setting screens and defending does not justify high amounts of PT, which is why Powe continued to take his minutes over the course of last season and most of this one.

Glen is an undersized, second year PF-C on a championship team. From the moment he stepped on an NBA court he's displayed a strong knowledge of defensive positioning and rotations. That's what won him minutes over Powe at the beginning of his rookie campaign, and it's what has allowed him to continue to beat out Powe for minutes to this day, even considering the age and experience advantage that Leon has over Glen.

-- Again, Davis' defensive awareness is a plus for him, though he does roam and gamble a bit much to be considered a great defender. However, as I mentioned above, Davis lost out on his PT up until recently - that's almost a full season's worth of losing out to Powe because Powe could execute offensively and once they got PJ Brown to be the face-up man, Davis wasn't as necissary.

As far as "age and experience" you are way off base. Glen Davis played 1663 minutes in the NBA and 3000 minutes in college for a total of 4663 total minutes. Powe has played 2220 minutes in the NBA and 1760 minutes in college for a total of 3983 total minutes.

So Powe's one extra year in the NBA came at the expense of a year in college, where he would have been "the man" and allowed to continue to explore and refine his game. Glen Davis came into the league having benefitted from a full 3 NCAA seasons. Powe's first year in the NBA was the Celtics 24 win nightmare and Powe saw a great deal of garbage time in those 700 minutes he received and was never a focal point offensively.

In my book, they are equally as experienced and have plenty of development to do before they reach their peak. I've just always felt that Powe as a much higher PROBABILITY to reach his ceiling, where Baby is much more of a risk. Whatever the difference in talent, I don't think its substantial enough to not play the probability, hence my preference for Powe.

Leon, like Glen, is undersized, but moreso, and possesses solid finishing skills around the basket and a knack for garnering offensive rebounds and loose balls. Leon's inside scoring ability is nice, but it's not nearly as valuable as Glen's interior defense.

Powe's interior defense of PF's is outstanding on-ball and is better than Davis'. Davis is a better defender of centers and is marginally better in team defense, though this is debatable at this point as Powe's team defense is very solid at this point.

Here's a testament to Glen's importance... look at the top three competitors for the Celtics, the Lakers, the Cavs, and the Magic (or Hawks). Glen has tremendous value defending Bynum or Gasol, Big Z, and Dwight Howard (and Al Horford)... he tends to give these guys problems with his strength. Powe is incapable of defending any of these guys and he has a REALLY hard time scoring over them.

Absolutely, against these CENTERS Glen Davis has more value. But the team has been trying to upgrade the center position all season - what does that tell you? Davis has a future as a PF if he gets in shape to be a PF. His size and bulk is conducive to being a Center right now, which is where he plays a vast majority of his minutes - a position where more minutes are available.

Powe is a nice player, a situational role player, just like Davis is. It just so happens that the Celtics need Davis' skillset much moreso than they need Powe's. Look at PJ Brown last year, what did he bring to the table? Physical interior defense, good screens, and mid-range shooting. Davis might not have proved himself as a reliable and consistent player in those regards but let's be honest he's much closer to filling that role than Powe will ever be.

Powe isn't asked to fill that role. I don't know how many times I can explain this before people understand it. Its a fact, Powe is suppose to play Perk's role - he isn't suppost to be shooting jumpers, though he is capable and proved so multiple times last season when he was allowed to explore his game a bit more. Now he is a pure post player, that's what he's asked to do. Davis is the face-up guy - there is no choice in the matter. In time, Powe will be allowed to do more offensively, but he's got his hands full learning how to be a more effective post player, which he actually IS doing despite the statistical decline.

[Feed Your Head]

Thank you for echoing my thoughts exactly. Baby still sucks hard, as does Tony...

How exactly has Tony sucked hard but not Powe or House?

Roland rating for the three are 0.0 for both Powe and TA and -3.4 for House, NET PER for them are +2.8 for TA, +1.8 for Powe, +0.4 for House. Tony is the leading scorer off the bench amd has scored in double figures more times than Powe despite playing in 12 less games. He is shooting 47% from the field which is pretty good for a Sg while Powe is at 51% which is down 6% from last year. House is good about not turning the ball over which is because he just catches and shoots, however Powe has as many turnovers a minute as TA. Tony is obviously the best defender of himself House and Powe which is backed up by his opponents PER. I can understand being disappointed with him a bit this year and him getting hurt alot obviously is a bad thing but he has hardly sucked so far.

IMO the biggest problem with the bench is the lack of depth and consistency, you never know what you are gonna get from anyone off the bench and thats why Doc's rotations are strange at times because he is trying to find a lineup that works each game.

[humblebum]

--I don't know about other people, but I didn't "write off" anyone. but I take exception to a player who continues to take shots in key situations of games when he just isn't consistent enough to justify the shot. Davis makes poor decisions with when to use his shot in games. The fact that he was successful against Orlando does not erase the total body of work he has displayed.

He IS a terrible shooter

, and until he consistently knocks that shot down I will continue to criticize him when he takes them in lieu of better options.

Well, the bolded quote is quite revealing of your bias. I don't here you saying that Powe is a terrible passer, with no vision, and is essentially a black hole and ball stopper. I mean, Powe hasn't been able to consistently display anything that would indicate otherwise.

Powe isn't asked to fill that role. I don't know how many times I can explain this before people understand it. Its a fact, Powe is suppose to play Perk's role - he isn't suppost to be shooting jumpers, though he is capable and proved so multiple times last season when he was allowed to explore his game a bit more.

Really, so Powe has "proven" he's capable of hitting the jump shot he just hasn't been allowed to explore it? But Davis hasn't proven his capability in the jumpshot and his decision making is poor because he continues to explore his game? Hmm... sounds like a double standard is developing here. Maybe, just maybe, Doc feels that Davis has a better chance of filling the role he's asking him to fill. Otherwise logic says that their current roles would be reversed, right?

Also, Powe's BODY OF WORK makes his past few weeks a "slump" while Davis' TOTAL BODY OF WORK makes him more open to criticism of his game.

Powe's BODY OF WORK? Thus far in Powe's career he's proven to be a solid, undersized, interior scorer with a good motor. He's been used situationally his entire career and has struggled against primetime defenses and legitimately sized PF-C. Though I won't argue that Davis' BODY OF WORK is superior, I will say that the "separation" between these two players is not as large as people would make it out to be. And still we have the question of fitting into the current Celtic roster and complementing KG.

Powe is a muscle man inside, like Perk, and will probably take a similar 5 year developmental path to becoming a consistent offensive threat - we're in year 3 now

Please don't compare Powe to Perk, it's insulting to Perk. Perk is a GREAT interior defender with limited offensive skills. Powe is a poor-mediocre interior defender, who's undersized, with limited offensive skills. Perk also came into the NBA at the age of 19-20 and he's YOUNGER than Powe right now. Powe is going to take 2 more years to develop? The guy will be 27-29 by that point... I mean really, you must be joking in comparing these two player's developmental paths.

Absolutely, against these CENTERS Glen Davis has more value. But the team has been trying to upgrade the center position all season - what does that tell you? Davis has a future as a PF if he gets in shape to be a PF. His size and bulk is conducive to being a Center right now, which is where he plays a vast majority of his minutes - a position where more minutes are available.

Ok, a positive statement about Davis. We're making progress. The bolded question tells me that they don't believe that Davis is consistent enough or reliable enough to be counted on in the playoffs. And frankly that's just smart management.

The reality is that Davis and Powe are both limited players and I find it ridiculous that Powe is thought of so much more highly than Davis when he's really not more valuable to this team. For another team Powe could be much more valuable than Davis, especially teams that value offense over defense. But I (and seemingly the team) tends to value defense first.

Here's a question for ya, what Power Forward on a contending team would the Celtics feel comfortable using Powe against, in place of Scal or Davis? Josh Smith? Maybe, but Scal might get the nod first. Odom? probably the same. I mean Powe is just NOT a reliable defender against any of the guys we need to be able to defend to win the championship. Davis has the ability defensively to be a real asset against many of the teams the Celtics will need to beat in order to win the championship... you just can't say that about Powe.

I fully believe that Rasheed Wallace will be a Celtic next season - a 3 year deal at MLE money...Sheed is the GOD version of BBD as far as defense and floor spacing goes

LOL, of course the team would like to replace Glen with Sheed, frankly who wouldn't? But this does not mean that Glen doesn't have more value for the Celtics right NOW, than does Powe. In the event that the Celtics do acquire Sheed then I can better understand how Powe could fit the roster, as a complement to Sheed, who unlike Garnett, is more capable of defending big PF's and Centers, while still providing floor spacing. But even in this event, Davis would still have value long term as a post defender and hustle guy, and even more value as his face up game continues to develop.

[billfromBoston]

I don't know what to say to that - you believe certain things and that is your prerogative...you have some valid points, but are simply off-base on others...I appreciate the time and logic you applied to your response however, at least you're trying to analyze the situation with the resources you have at your disposal...

...I just trust my knowledge and resources enough to disagree with you about a number of points...in time, these things will play out as they may - Davis still has a shot at "winning" this debate for you and your side...but he is behind in my opinion and that's my take on things...

[humblebum]

I appreciate your honest and somewhat snide agree to disagree statement. I look forward to seeing how the Celtics bench frontcourt situation works out. And of course, I've got my money on Glen winning the battle. It should be interesting.

[cisco]

LOL, of course the team would like to replace Glen with Sheed, frankly who wouldn't? But this does not mean that Glen doesn't have more value for the Celtics right NOW, than does Powe. In the event that the Celtics do acquire Sheed then I can better understand how Powe could fit the roster, as a complement to Sheed, who unlike Garnett, is more capable of defending big PF's and Centers, while still providing floor spacing. But even in this event, Davis would still have value long term as a post defender and hustle guy, and even more value as his face up game continues to develop.

Even in the scenario where the Celtics acquire Sheed, Glen Davis is still a better fit than Powe. Why? Because of Davis' versatility and because of his defense, he can play with all three front court players, KG, Perk and Sheed. Doc can mix and match any way he wants with those 4 guys and doesn't have to worry about who can play inside/out, etc. (except for Perk - we don't need two limited players). If KG and Sheed go down, you don't want to see Powe and Perk playing together, but BBD and Perk will fit just fine. If any of the bigs go down, I'd feel more comfortable with BBD defending inside than Powe.