The best there is, was, and ever will be! NOT MJ!!!

[chakdaddy]

I think all you guys have great points. Honestly what set Jordan apart is when he developed his fadeaway jumper. I'm sorry can you honestly say you've seen a player that could take over a game like MJ in the final moments? Where Jordan stands out the most is when he took over, no one could stop him......no one.

Good discussion going on, no doubt.

I think once Jordan developed the fadeaway, he started hogging the ball like he did in the mid 80's. But because of the way the game was called, it was still effective. Look at those Utah series - most of the time he just chucked jump shots while he was surrounded by 2 or 3 guys. If he missed and anyone was remotely close to him, a foul got called; so guys had to lay off and barely contest the shot - and he still didn't make them at THAT great a percentage.

I don't think he was the great team player that he was from '90-93 anymore at that point. '93 Jordan passes off to Paxson for the winner and puts up Bird/LeBron numbers. '98 Jordan shoots contested jumpers because he knows the refs will bail him out if he misses. '90-93 Jordan was a great defender; '97-98 Jordan let Harper and Pippen handle the tough defensive assignments.

''90-93 Jordan would be the greatest ever if he had played similarly unselfishly throughout his career; but from '84-89 or so he was just a gunner, and from '97-98 I don't think he was much but a selfish jumpshooter who was anointed as the pre-determined champion.

[Ortho Stice]

Russell was a revolutionary player: he invented the shot block. In college he read the rulebook and saw that there wasn't a rule against blocking a players' shot, and so he did it and was wildly successful at it -- his opponents had no idea what he was doing. Coaches had always told players never to leave their feet so they could always be in position to rebound. But his coach reprimanded him for his wildly inventive shot blocking defense, and he wasn't allowed to block shots until he entered the NBA, where the coaches didn't stop him from doing it, and realized how greatly successful shot blocking could be. Yes, a real advanced NBA back then, folks. Jordan surely would've struggled in this highly refined game of the past!

[spanish-celtic]

The best basketball player I've ever seen is Larry Joe Bird. I've seen NBA from the 80's, I have no opinion about previos players starting at Kareem, whose 80's version was worse than Olajuwon (IMO) but had the hell of a career behind him back then.

Jordan was great, maybe the best as individual player but not as basketball player, like Magic said Larry Bird was just what a basketball player should be. By the way, it wasn't his fault but Jordan started the one-man-show era in the NBA, the ball hogging and the "you guys just look how I play one on one" kind of clutch plays. Guys from Pierce to Kobe and LeBron getting the ball mid-court just waiting for the final three seconds and then shooting just in front of his defender... it's terrible, poor basketball game. MJ talked about evolution, well, we are suffering the evolution he inspired, he wasn't that bad but the way he played basketball wasn't the best, in fact, it led to this kind of basketball.

The 80's was the best era for basketball, untill the mid 90 you still could watch and good mix between 80's basketball and athletic skills, but since then NBA basketball is terrible with a few exceptions that in no way include those D'antoni's Suns teams.

On the other hand, Larry Bird was as good as Jordan could be (except for the athletic skills), but he played the game the way it should be played.

[Red2]

I think Jordan was a hell of a competitor as well as one tremendous athlete but I don't consider him the best of all time. It has to be Russell because of the 11 titles in 13 years. That has never been duplicated and never will.

[Red2]

ps I agree with Spanish Red that Jordan ushered in a new brand of basketball which was the "me" generation of bball. In his defense he was surrounded by lesser talent for a good while until he got Pippen and some other guys but he was always known for HIS scoring and not his ability to make his teammates better. That's where Magic, Bird and Russell stand out. They played team ball and made their teammates better. Bird scored when he had to but he would rather pass the ball and Magic was the same way. Jordan loved the one on one confrontation and all of the adoration that came his way but Bird and Russell hated the limelight.

[joescribe]

Jordan is only the consensus GOAT because he dominated the 1990s, which has to be the worst era in basketball history. Think about it. Who was the second best player of the 1990s?

Karl Malone, who peed his pants in the clutch in his only finals’ appearances? Clyde Drexler, who was a second rate star who lacked any sort of courage. Only Hakeem stands the test of time as a truly great player whose prime came in the 1990s.

It's not his fault, but Jordan's greatness only shone so bright because it contrasted with the stepsisters he faced on a day-to-day basis.

Meanwhile, Russell dominated an era filled to the brim with truly great players — The Big O, Zeke from Cabin Creek, Elgin, Wilt, Petit, Jerry Lucas, Willis Reed, Rick Barry, Hal Greer, Goodrich, Bring, Frazier, Unseld, Monroe....

[old rem]

How many people who are sure Jordan is the best ever, never saw Bill Russell play?

...just wondering.

....or Oscar Robertson or Wilt.

I saw all of 'em. The thing is...you can't pick a "best ever" when all the main guys played 10+ years at different times,different teammates,different rules. I was a kid in Cincinnati when Oscar played college ball at U Cincinnati. In each of his varsity seasons he scored over 32 per and led the nation in scoring...notable in that the other high scorers included Elgin Baylor,Jerry West and Wilt. He also was the starting SS on UC's baseball team,a very good one though 6-5 225. He averaged a triple double his second NBA season...but ...interesting...averaged a triple double if you combined his first 3 seasons.

I watched the Celts in B+W when Cousy was the star and Russell wasn't there yet. Me and another kid went to a Royals,Warriors game...snuck down to the front row of the on-court seats at the half and saw Oscar vs Wilt up CLOSE from the baseline. Wilt INVENTED a lot of "low post" skills,but some of his stuff...nobody ever quite duplicated. Wilt could palm the ball like a grapefruit and had an amazing wingspan...He'd hold the ball up,full height in one hand...and with a flick of the wrist,pass to a cutter without bringing the ball down. Next time,from the same stance,he'd put the ball on the floor for one huge strige into a sweeping hook.

Russell really was more the PF prototype but he had seasons where he averaged 20 boards and probably about 10 blocks.

I saw a game on TV that AFAIK was the only game where Magic + Bird were team mates. The Soviet national team was plaing the US College All Stars in a preseason game. The Soviets had a C about Yao's size...but wider...and a young Sabonis at PF Magic and Bird put on a passing clinic that was beyond compare. They turned the huge Soviet C into a liability. Magic did PG like a triple option QB and first game I saw him as a freshman..I decided he'd be one of the best ever....and Mich St would win the NCAA. No doubt at all. Could MJ pass and create like Magic? Did he dominate on D like Russell? Could he shoot like Oscar (or pass like Oscar) Could he just OWN the paint like Wilt and just be unstoppable? Not quite. Jordan IS in that group (Hakeem and Bird too) but best ever? Not nessecerily.