OT Hemingway solves iraq and afgan wars

[Hemingway]

It is somewhat a tough call. While it is easy to through out all conspiracy talk as foolish, when we look back on the Pearl Harbor attacks it looks more and more like we knew they were coming and welcomed a chance to enter the war with public support. I still think the 9/11 conspiracy talk is mostly foolish but it wouldn't surprise me 20 years from now if something came out that showed at least a bit of conspiracy.

The real conspiracy however, and one acknowledged by almost everyone now is the WMDs in Iraq. I don't believe for a second that the Bush administration really thought they had nuclear weapons. If they really did they would have said nuclear not WMD. I think WMDs was a better term so they could hope they find something of some sort there and could say that is what they were looking for the whole time.

[wigglestrue]

The problem with conspiracy theories is that they're not falsifiable. Absence of evidence is proof that evidence is being successfully concealed.

No, it's not proof of that. And the problem with conspiracies, both mundane and grandiose, is that they're designed not to leave much if any evidence. Conspiracies are by definition hatched secretively. Anyway, there's plenty of circumstantial evidence that points to willful, malicious inaction. Nothing that would get anybody in particular convicted in a court, obviously.

Can small groups of people orchestrate events in such a way that their roles are kept secret and evade investigation?

Happens all the time. Anyone remember the mafia? You realize there've got to be countless scandalous national security operations that go on for decades without being leaked, if ever.

Such a group would have to contend with the risks of leaks, whistle-blowers, defections, mistakes, accidents (and all the incentives that individuals would have to leak, whistle-blow, defect)..

Don't forget the even stronger disincentives to NOT do any of that stuff. Anyway, the people involved in such plans (I agree it would have to be a relatively small group) are wholly committed. Whether they're mercenaries or true believers, leaks are highly unlikely. Mistakes are foreseeable, plans are probably redundant, and any misstep can probably be corrected. We'd also be talking about people who are traditionally given the strongest benefit of the doubt imaginable.

good stuff for a bad screenplay but not very likely in the real world.

You should read more 20th century history.

[wigglestrue]

The real conspiracy however, and one acknowledged by almost everyone now is the WMDs in Iraq. I don't believe for a second that the Bush administration really thought they had nuclear weapons. If they really did they would have said nuclear not WMD. I think WMDs was a better term so they could hope they find something of some sort there and could say that is what they were looking for the whole time.

Exactly. Anyone who thinks the Iraq warmongerers were misguided idealists is worse than naive. There's a real instance of a conspiracy, how the Iraq war was set up. It's a great lesson in what conspiracies look like, in how much an outsider can detect and actually prove about them, in the general leaklessness of a conspiracy (and they were barely making an effort to keep up appearances in that case, mostly just bullying their way no matter who found out what), in the ability to cover up and airbrush any mistakes, and so on.

[Banks2Pierce]

Also, there is a history of our leaders willing to throw out civilian or military lives for their greater cause.

The Department of Defense wanted to make it look like Cuban terrorists were hijacking airplanes and committing other domestic crimes on American soil. This was known as Operation Northwoods. There are documents and everything. Undeniable.

I also think it's funny when people say "get out the tinfoil. uh oh" and things along those lines. It's the same way some of the now known greats were treated. A lot of people out there that are "Earth is flat" type people that believe everything they see on the nightly news. I KNOW that at the very least there was government complacency about 9/11. The proof is in the pudding. Look who was appointed to the 9/11 commission. Look into the facts for about 5 minutes and start to realize that everything about the official story is ridiculous. I'm not a conspiracy nut that believes in aliens and ghosts and that there is an alien ship at area 51. I think all that is crap and that they will come up with a fake "whistleblower" that says ridiculous things that make all conspiracy theorists look loony. I think it's all a diversion for the money that is swindled from the general public.

These presidents and their cabinets are paid millions by corps and nothing by the actual country that employs them: you tell me who they care about more. And while the hens argue about who is dumber: the republicans or the democrats, the fox sits back laughing with his money and women.

[Hemingway]

The more I think about it the more I think my idea would work. It would really help to catch Bin Ladin though. I wonder if he is in pakastan(sp?) or if we know about where he is with relative certainty. That would let us end things fast.

[Dirty Water]

We will never leave. Its not terrorism we are trying to stop, it's the oil we are trying to get. Sad but true. Until we find a legit alternative energy source we will be stomping all over there till the oil's gone.

[return2glory]

Why is it that people who want to look the other way call it conspiracy theory. It's not a theory. It's a fact. Scientists have come out and said it was impossible for those buildings to come down that way. WTC building # 7 didn't even get hit by a plane and came down demoltions style. Fire fighters that were there in the buildings heards explositions go off. Witnesses there saw and heard the same thing. I would believe those people over our government any day.

[return2glory]

Here's more scientific proof of the Twin Towers falling. It's only 7 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k4tmlmw ... re=related

Was it a missle that hit the Towers? You decide. 2 minute footage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbCcb6NV ... re=related

It was a Military Plane that hit the towers. 1 minute footage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRC4lCQu ... re=related

The Pentagon attack: 2 minute footage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmP2Vy8K ... re=related

Do your on research. Don't take the government's word as gold. The swine flu vaccine is the next lie. They have a vaccine for something they knew very little about? Do you want to take a chance like that? Ask your doctor if he/she had his kids take that vaccine?

We are in a recession, yet we spend about $10 billion a month on a war that's been going on for 7 years? No one even knows why we are in war in Iraq. The people in Iraq know.

President Obama is also just a puppet. He promised to bring our troops back home when he was running for office, but now he is about to send more troops.I love this country, I just don't trust the goverment. The great people of America made this country great and the crooks in government are ruining that. When enough people wake up, we will take back the power that the government has taken from us.

[OBisHalJordan]

before anyone criticizes the 9-11 families, they should watch this documentary:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 414136481#

it is about the battle for and then over the 9-11 commission. the movie doesn't postulate any conspiracy theory but instead is a political history of the 9-11 investigations. i worked on this movie as one of two researchers. I spent way too much of January, February, and March 2006 in the basement of the WEB Dubois Library at UMASS Amherst going through endless and obscure periodicals. Everything in this movie is true and shows that the Bush Administration was trying to hide something by not investigating 9-11. Now, I am not going to pretend to no what happened on 9-11 and I do a lot the conspiracy theories are total bull. This movie is not.

[wigglestrue]

Why is it that people who want to look the other way call it conspiracy theory. It's not a theory. It's a fact. Scientists have come out and said it was impossible for those buildings to come down that way. WTC building # 7 didn't even get hit by a plane and came down demoltions style. Fire fighters that were there in the buildings heards explositions go off. Witnesses there saw and heard the same thing. I would believe those people over our government any day.

Way, way more scientists have said that it was possible. WTC7 was hit by massive debris of the other collapsing towers, which contrary to Truther dogma did not "fall neatly in their own footprint" but cascaded outward, and the damage to WTC7 at the base of one of its corners was extensive, so were the fires. Ear and eye witnesses are not totally reliable. Nothing you said is a fact. There are plenty of suspicious facts. Demolition is not one of them.

before anyone criticizes the 9-11 families, they should watch this documentary:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 414136481#

it is about the battle for and then over the 9-11 commission. the movie doesn't postulate any conspiracy theory but instead is a political history of the 9-11 investigations. i worked on this movie as one of two researchers. I spent way too much of January, February, and March 2006 in the basement of the WEB Dubois Library at UMASS Amherst going through endless and obscure periodicals. Everything in this movie is true and shows that the Bush Administration was trying to hide something by not investigating 9-11. Now, I am not going to pretend to no what happened on 9-11 and I do a lot the conspiracy theories are total bull. This movie is not.

Kudos to you!

[return2glory]

before anyone criticizes the 9-11 families, they should watch this documentary:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 414136481#

it is about the battle for and then over the 9-11 commission. the movie doesn't postulate any conspiracy theory but instead is a political history of the 9-11 investigations. i worked on this movie as one of two researchers. I spent way too much of January, February, and March 2006 in the basement of the WEB Dubois Library at UMASS Amherst going through endless and obscure periodicals. Everything in this movie is true and shows that the Bush Administration was trying to hide something by not investigating 9-11. Now, I am not going to pretend to no what happened on 9-11 and I do a lot the conspiracy theories are total bull. This movie is not.

Thank you so much for you work. It exposes the Government's cover ups again.

Look at Bush flat out lying at 25:08-25:44

C. Rice lying her ass off: 42:41-43:02

A lie about not knowing in advance that there were warnings of attacks. 44:18- 46:16

Bin Laden allowed to escape several times. 51:25- 53:34.

Truth is that we were never looking for Bin Laden. The Bin Ladens' are family friends of the Bushes. Bin Laden was used as "villian" to allow the U.S. to attack Sadam and Iraq.

Bush slips up: 53:47- 53:51.

Again, U.S. leaders allow the so called enemies to get away: 55:22- 57:12.

Our government was in on the attacks of 9/11. They planned it. They needed an excuse to attack Sadam and Iraq that had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks. I feel sorry for our poorly educated, "lower class" soldiers that put their lives on the lines and die in a evil game that they'll never understand. Same goes for the any soldiers in any country that are brain washed and die for something that they don't understand.

Lie after lie, cover up after cover up.

[crm0922]

Our government was in on the attacks of 9/11. They planned it. They needed an excuse to attack Sadam and Iraq that had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks. I feel sorry for our poorly educated, "lower class" soldiers that put their lives on the lines and die in a evil game that they'll never understand. Same goes for the any soldiers in any country that are brain washed and die for something that they don't understand.

Lie after lie, cover up after cover up.

Do you really believe this? Wow.

Here's one thing. If the government planned these attacks, why didn't they just pin it on Saddam directly? Your position makes no sense.

[Harison]

How to solve Iraq and Afgan wars - NEVER START THEM in the first place. Its Bush administrations crimes against humanity, Bush and many from his administration should have been sentenced to death because of it. Already over million people died, and because of what? WMD in Iraq? Lies. Sadams support for Al Qaeda? Another lie.

How about Bin Laden himself and 9/11? First lets say he is responsible, according to him US had it coming for many crimes in Middle East (like blind support of Israel and their genocide of Palestinians), so 9/11 would be reaction to that. But you know whats interesting? Bin Ladens involvement with 9/11 was NEVER PROVEN, so many years passed and CIA representative said they still dont have proof. Let me remind you when first accusations about Bin Laden and 9/11 appeared, Bush said they have proof, and Taliban offered to trial Bin Laden in the 3rd neutral country, US instead of trial attacked country and killed hundreds of thousands

[Dirty Water]

Wow at you actually think 911 was an inside job. Just wow. All the facts you said, are not facts. And none of those videos provide proof. It's amazing how gullible people are these days. I think it has to do with the increase in amount of information readily available to an ordinary person with technology these days.

[ramshackle75]

I learned a long time ago that posting political opinions on the internet is a lot like masturbating in public. A lot of furious energy, you make yourself feel better, but only piss off or disgust everyone else. No one's mind is going to be changed by anything you have to say here.

Therefore, having not read much of this thread, I'm not sure if it was mentioned or not but ... if time machines are going to be built, couldn't we go back and stop Len from touching that goddamn cocaine? Please?

[Geech]

pssst... and Bill Clinton was responsible for the OKC bombing.