Ainge offered Rondo for D.Harris

[GuyClinch]

^^^Heh. Don't sweat it. Back a few years ago we had people telling us Big Al was better then KG..

[Grahf]

Harris would do even better I think with his complete game.

Guy, you've been talking all throughout the thread about how we need a shooter at PG, and how Rondo's lack of an outside shot is a big problem. You do know that Rondo's 3P% last year was better than Harris's right? Harris shot a terrible 29% on three point shots, and he took more than three a game. So he couldn't hit a three, and he chucked them up at a rate that really hurt his team. Rondo doesn't have a great shot right now, but unlike Harris, he knows it and doesn't throw away possessions by chucking up outside shots he rarely makes.

Rondo picks up more assists, more steals, shoots at a much higher percentage and is the superior defender. Right now, Harris is the better scorer, but Rondo is already a better scorer than Harris was at his age.

Harris gets to the line a ton and he makes his free throws, which is his only advantage over Rondo. But he didn't start going to the line consistently until last year, his 6th in the league. Believe me, I like Harris, but Rondo is already the better player and is three years younger.

[sully00]

Harris has to take those shots, his team was him and Vince. His shooting, expecially the 3 fell off at the end of the year but he was also hurt by the fact that more than 10% of his attempts were with the clock running out and he struggled. He shot 33% the year before when he was less overexposed.

Guess what if Rondo was in Harris' role he would have to take those shots, not the .6 attempts he has to take now because of Ray, Paul, and Eddie. He would have to take them with a hand in his face and the focus of the opponents defense and not an after thought.

Keep in mind Rondo gets to start in Boston compare their per 36 numbers add role into the discussion if you want to include age and experience. Rondo was 10,12,13 his first 3 years Harris is 13,15,14.

Both players have their flaws and both can improve but no Rondo is not a better player right now, he is a different player.

[Grahf]

Harris has been a bad shooter his whole career, even when he was in Dallas protected by Dirk. 31% from beyond the arc over six seasons. 33% is still bad.

Guess what if Rondo was in Harris' role he would have to take those shots, not the .6 attempts he has to take now because of Ray, Paul, and Eddie. He would have to take them with a hand in his face and the focus of the opponents defense and not an after thought.

Agreed, this is pretty much my point. Harris is the better scorer, Rondo the better playmaker/defender. We've got tons of guys who can score, so why would we take the scorer over the playmaker? With Paul, Ray and KG, do we really need another guy with a score-first mentality?

[tombattor]

Rondo is not a better defender than Harris. I know we all love to get on Rondo's jock about his D, but Harris is also one of the best defensive PGs in the league. He has to take on a much bigger offensive load in NJ, so his D slacked a bit, but when he was at Dallas, he was one of the best, if not the best defensive PG in the league.

[sully00]

Harris has been a bad shooter his whole career, even when he was in Dallas protected by Dirk. 31% from beyond the arc over six seasons. 33% is still bad.

33% is not bad that is actually the passing line, 33% is equal to 50% of two point attempts. How exactly was Harris protected by Dirk? But if Harris is a bad shooter then Rondo is friggin atrocious. Harris shoots his jumpers at 42% eFG Rondo at 37. Harris shoots his FT's at over 80% Rondo at under 65%. These are elemental parts of the game for a PG. Rondo doesn't just avoid jump shots he also avoids taking the ball to the rim so he doesn't have to go the line.

Guess what if Rondo was in Harris' role he would have to take those shots, not the .6 attempts he has to take now because of Ray, Paul, and Eddie. He would have to take them with a hand in his face and the focus of the opponents defense and not an after thought.

Agreed, this is pretty much my point. Harris is the better scorer, Rondo the better playmaker/defender. We've got tons of guys who can score, so why would we take the scorer over the playmaker? With Paul, Ray and KG, do we really need another guy with a score-first mentality?

Harris doesn't have a score-first mentality, because he is a better scorer doesn't make him a bad pg. He avg 7 apg on only 3 tos. Harris is a scorer and a shooter and you can always use more shooters. This isn't Gilbert Arenas we are talking about, Harris takes 15 shots a game he would fit in fine offensively, I am not saying he would score 20-21ppg but 15-17 without a problem.

The current Boston lineup would not be hurt by swapping Rondo for Harris, it would be different but it would still be a great team. The issue isn't now the contract doesn't even kick in till next year, it is in 2-3 years what are you going to do.

I don't think Ainge wants to trade Rondo because he likes all of the little things he does as much as anyone. But the point is he can't overpay for those things. I think that Ainge would like to give Rondo an extension and build around him but to do that he has to come in at a number in the 8-9 mil range so he has the resources to add the shooters and scorers Rondo needs to be successful. Rondo and his camp are probably feeling the hype like many on this board are asking for a deal starting at 10 mil a year. So Ainge very publicly offered Rondo around for scoring pgs, for the most part in packages with Ray, for Barbossa, Stuckey, and Harris. Funny nobody kicked in the door for Rondo, not because he isn't a good player but because of his flaws and the numbers his agent is talking about.

[ryaningf]

Keep in mind Rondo gets to start in Boston compare their per 36 numbers add role into the discussion if you want to include age and experience. Rondo was 10,12,13 his first 3 years Harris is 13,15,14.

Dig deeper, Sully. Take a look at their FGA per 36 minutes in their first 3 seasons. Rondo was 8,11,10, while Harris was 11,11,10. Actually, their per 36 minute rate of FG/FGA is almost identical in their 3rd year--Harris averages an extra point per game based solely off getting to the line more and shooting a higher %. It's pretty clear that based solely on scoring, they had almost identical #s in their first 3 years.

But looking at the rest of their game, the comparison becomes decidedly one-sided. Check out the rebounding and assist # per 36 minutes:
Rondo reb: 5.7, 5, 5.7
Harris reb: 3.1, 3.5, 3.4

Rondo assist: 5.8, 6.1, 9.0
Harris assist: 5.2, 5, 5.1

Check out the steal and turnover #s per 36
Rondo steal: 2.5, 2, 2,
Harris steal: 2.4, 1.5, 1.7

Rondo TO: 2.7, 2.3, 2.8
Harris TO: 2.5, 2.4, 2.5

So, what can we take from the first 3 seasons of each player? They're similar scorers, and similar ball handlers. Rondo is a slightly better steal man, and supremely better at assisting and rebounding.

Projecting that into the future, it's pretty clear that Rondo going to be the better player--he's even or better in almost every statistical category.

Don't discount the free throw discrepancy either. Harris, at least when I watch him, tends to get a lot of crap calls where he basically falls down and gets to the free throw line. Rondo, on the other hand, falls down all the time and can't seem to ever get rewarded with free throws. Of course, Rondo's been a bad free throw shooter over his career, but I can't seem to shake the feeling that he doesn't get as much respect from the zebras as does Harris (who averaged 8 FTA a game last season, or about 6 more per 48 minutes than the opposing point guard did). Give Rondo 3 more seasons and you'd hope he finally gets the same amount of respect...respect that would easily push his PPG beyond 15 or higher.

As for defensive prowess, Harris used to play good defense--in stretches when he was younger and all he had to do was concentrate on defending. Last season he was terrible and it wasn't even close--sure, he had more offensive responsibility, but he didn't even compete defensively on some nights. His PER against last season was pretty terrible--18.6, or about 2.1 higher than Rondo's.

Sure, Harris would be great on the Cs right now--just like Rondo is currently great on this team. Either player could lead us to a championship, but it's a mistake to assume that Harris gives us a better shot at one just because he's a better jump shooter. The common denominator between championship and bust isn't PG FG%--it's the health of KG (or the team in general).

[sully00]

Dig deeper, Sully. Take a look at their FGA per 36 minutes in their first 3 seasons. Rondo was 8,11,10, while Harris was 11,11,10. Actually, their per 36 minute rate of FG/FGA is almost identical in their 3rd year--Harris averages an extra point per game based solely off getting to the line more and shooting a higher %. It's pretty clear that based solely on scoring, they had almost identical #s in their first 3 years.

This isn't about diggin deeper this is about what is obvious. If you score more, get to the line more, shoot a better percentage, score more points with less shots, you are a better scorer. Did you watch Devin Harris in DAl? Did he have a jump shot? Rondo was doing it again last night passing up wide open jump shots that killed the flow of the offense.

Sure, Harris would be great on the Cs right now--just like Rondo is currently great on this team. Either player could lead us to a championship, but it's a mistake to assume that Harris gives us a better shot at one just because he's a better jump shooter. The common denominator between championship and bust isn't PG FG%--it's the health of KG (or the team in general).

To be honest I am not all for this trade, I love Rondo as a player. For those concerned about Rondo's attitude and being difficult to coach Harris has some of the same questions about him. This is more about Rondo's value and worth to this team. The Nets said that Rondo and 3 mil more in cap space (the difference between Rondo's cap hold and Harris' salary) are not worth Devin Harris. I already said that as far as this year goes Harris and Rondo are a wash. What is attractive to me is having Devin Harris under contract for 2012-2013 for 8.5 mil bucks when this team is likely looking at going into FA big time to rebuild on the fly.