List of Best Defensive Players of all Time -

[Wolves2011]

Big guys back then dominated much more than they do today.

This statement is simply not true. Without even considering the differences in stat tracking there are significant cultural differences between the early NBA and today's NBA.

Back then the league was much smaller and predominantly white. Today it is 22 teams bigger and 85% black. Don't you consider how this is possible? It's called racism. That's a major non-statistical reason why you can't compare era's. Combine that with sports industry, competition, and the differences in stat tracking; the NBA has evolved more than any professional American sport over the last 50 years.

I'll explain why Howard is so much less than guys like Russell.

Howard led the NBA with 13.8 rebounds per game last year.

Russell's best rebounding season was 25 rebounds per game and he averaged 22.5 rebounds per game for his CAREER.

If Russell and Howard matched-up right now do you think you would get the same result? If you answer yes then I don't know what else to say. The reason NOBODY has averaged Russell-like numbers since he played the game is because he changed the game. This is a credit to Russell, no doubt, but it's also relative to the factors I listed above (60s racism, industry, competition, and stat tracking). Russell was one of the most influential players of all time but to think he would average 25 rebounds per game in today's NBA is beyond my understanding. More than that, at 6-9, he would be considered too small to play the 5 and not offensively-minded enough to play the role of today's power forward. In closing, now is now, and then was then.

My statement: "Big guys back then dominated much more than they do today"

Your response, it was due to racism.... but the two guys I mentioned who dominated at CENTER [and there were others], were Russell and Chamberlain, who were both black.

You didn't refute my point........that big men were more dominant than today.

Russell did average about 22.5 rebounds for his career.

Chamberlain did average about 25 rebounds for his career.

Thats not racism, they were black.

Centers, white or black, dominated the NBA from the 40's into the 70's & 80s and in some cases even beyond - starting with George Mikan, continuing through Russell, Chamberlain, Mel Daniels, Strom Thurmond, Kareem Abdul Jabbar , Artis Gilmore, Hakeem Olajawon, Tim Duncan, Shaq and others I've missed. [As for racism, you might notice that almost all of those "dominant" big men were black.]

The game did change because of Russell and others. But the quality of "big men" has also dropped.

There are fewer high quality big men than in the past. I'm not sure why.

The combination of size, athletic ability and basketball skills of big men in the 60's through the 80's was exceptional.

It wasn't just quality. There were more good big men then.

If there was a chamberlain or a Russell today, using today's training techniques [those guys didn't have cardio, didn't lift weights, didn't have offseason basketball routines because they needed to work in the offseason to pay bills since they made so little money] they would still be dominant today in my view.

You say Russell is too thin. Think of Camby [times 3] , who led the NBA in rebounds and block shots for a few years. Russell was faster than many guards, was a quicker leaper than anyone, and could jump higher than anyone.

Kevin Love is a great NBA rebounder. He does it with smarts and positioning. If Kevin Love was a quick leaper, who jumped higher than anyone else and combined those things with his aggressiveness and positioning he's be Russell. Russell went after "every rebound" on the court. Love does that without the athleticism and is still extremely successful. If Love had Russell's athletic gifts he'd average 22 rebounds per game. So yes, I think Russell could average 22 rebounds and 10 blocks in todays game.

People want to believe that their era is the "best" one.

It might change in the future, but the "golden age" of the center position has passed us by.

[GuyClinch]

Most composite stats can do fine with lists of the greats. <g> These guys dominated statistically so its not shocking.. BTW Russell wasn't bad on offense - he just weak in comparson to Wilt.

Pete

[Ben-N1ce]

I didn't even look at the list but Hakeem the Dream is the best. He played against great centers and shut down great centers during his era.

[hairybyrd]

You just can't think outside the box.

Your response, it was due to racism.... but the two guys I mentioned who dominated at CENTER [and there were others], were Russell and Chamberlain, who were both black.

The color line wasn't broken in the NBA until 1951. This means that about 10-15 years previous to Russell's and Chamberlain's dominance, black players weren't allowed to play in the NBA. It was different. I'm not gonna go to the trouble of citing demographic percentages so you're just going to have to trust that American sports, at some point in time, were racist. Historically, the 1960s was a transitional time in America with Civil Rights, Women's sufferage, political assassinations, counter-culturalists, anti-war sentiment, etc. These factors had a much greater effect on the NBA than you'll probably ever realize. Again, the color line wasn't broken until 1951 and the WNBA wasn't established until the late 1990s. White male privilege affected the NBA in its early years and this is important to Russell and Chamberlain's successes because both were playing against less, weaker, more privileged, and whiter competition. Today, so many players (black, white and international) are groomed to play in the NBA beginning as early as middle school. It's a huge, global business now. It...was...diff...er...ent back then. Go watch "Hoop Dreams" and think for a minute.

Saying that "the NBA wasn't racist because black players were the best players" is nonsensical. The opportunities for black players, still, were limited, because the NBA was predominantly white. Go look at a 1950s Celtics team picture and tell me what you see. You would also be interested to know that Bill Russell, KC Jones and Satch Sanders in their early careers were not allowed to eat with the white Celtics players on road trips nor were they allowed to stay at the same hotel. Not to mention the disrespect black athletes endured from fans on a regular basis. For such reasons, Russell, the natural leader of that group, literally boycotted Celtics games with the other black players (and Red fully supported Russell). This is the real reason why Russell was amazing , not because he averaged a stupid number of rebounds in a season but because he stood up for a cause. He put himself and his small paycheck on the line to ensure a better future for black basketball players.

Beyond that, I used racism as a cultural example. I also listed 3 other factors why you can't compare era's: industry, competition and stat tracking. Maybe you should consider one of those factors next.

[hairybyrd]

P.s. I never said this

You say Russell is too thin. Think of Camby [times 3] , who led the NBA in rebounds and block shots for a few years. Russell was faster than many guards, was a quicker leaper than anyone, and could jump higher than anyone.

I said Russell would be considered too small (not thin). I'm not the one making the decisions. I'm not a GM. 6-9 is considered, by GMs and non-GMs alike, too small for center in today's NBA. Not necessarily fair, just the way it is. His athleticism would make up for that but his height would be CONSIDERED (as a hypothetical-basis for analysis) too small.

[Wolves2011]

You just can't think outside the box.

Your response, it was due to racism.... but the two guys I mentioned who dominated at CENTER [and there were others], were Russell and Chamberlain, who were both black.

The color line wasn't broken in the NBA until 1951. This means that about 10-15 years previous to Russell's and Chamberlain's dominance, black players weren't allowed to play in the NBA. It was different. I'm not gonna go to the trouble of citing demographic percentages so you're just going to have to trust that American sports, at some point in time, were racist. Historically, the 1960s was a transitional time in America with Civil Rights, Women's sufferage, political assassinations, counter-culturalists, anti-war sentiment, etc. These factors had a much greater effect on the NBA than you'll probably ever realize. Again, the color line wasn't broken until 1951 and the WNBA wasn't established until the late 1990s. White male privilege affected the NBA in its early years and this is important to Russell and Chamberlain's successes because both were playing against less, weaker, more privileged, and whiter competition. Today, so many players (black, white and international) are groomed to play in the NBA beginning as early as middle school. It's a huge, global business now. It...was...diff...er...ent back then. Go watch "Hoop Dreams" and think for a minute.

Saying that "the NBA wasn't racist because black players were the best players" is nonsensical. The opportunities for black players, still, were limited, because the NBA was predominantly white. Go look at a 1950s Celtics team picture and tell me what you see. You would also be interested to know that Bill Russell, KC Jones and Satch Sanders in their early careers were not allowed to eat with the white Celtics players on road trips nor were they allowed to stay at the same hotel. Not to mention the disrespect black athletes endured from fans on a regular basis. For such reasons, Russell, the natural leader of that group, literally boycotted Celtics games with the other black players (and Red fully supported Russell). This is the real reason why Russell was amazing , not because he averaged a stupid number of rebounds in a season but because he stood up for a cause. He put himself and his small paycheck on the line to ensure a better future for black basketball players.

Beyond that, I used racism as a cultural example. I also listed 3 other factors why you can't compare era's: industry, competition and stat tracking. Maybe you should consider one of those factors next.

So what are you saying?

There weren't enough blacks in the NBA in the 60's when Russell and Chamberlain dominated.

Even by the early 60's blacks were well represented in the NBA.

The first Celtics all black starting line up was in the mid'60's.
[First all black starting line up in the NBA, by the way, and we are criticized as a racist team by some. Auerbach helped lead the NBA to full integration by simply always playing the best players.]

Most teams in the NBA were at least half black by then.

Thats when Russell and Chamberlain had most of their stats... they were playing against mostly black centers on other teams......

So again, you've lost me.......

Stats were not tracked in as much detail.

For instance they only tracked total rebounds by player not offensive and defensive rebounds.

They didn't track blocks, thats why the estimate of Russells blocks by him team mates, opponents and ref's is so freaky... but he isn't in the record books for blocks. The estimate of Russells blocks at 10 per game is unreal

Assists were "harder" to get back then or cousy would have led all players in assists. [I don't remember the details I read long ago, but the player "receiving" the pass could do less with the ball for it to be counted as an assist. Heinsohn has estimated that Cousy's assists would have doubled if he played under today's rules.] Cousy was the protypical point guard as Russell became the protypical center. Ask Russell how good Cousy was.......

what is the competition argument?

I'd argue that there was more competition among Big men in the 60's and 70's. There were fewer NBA teams back then. So each team played its rivals much more often. Russell and Chamberlain were on two of them. Nate Thurmond, Walt Bellamy, Willis Read, Wayne Embry, Mel Daniels, were all from that era. If Chamberlain was playing now in this "watered down era", he wouldn't have averaged 50 points for one full season, he'd have done it every season...lol....

Currently no team plays any other more than 6 times in the regular season and if they are in the opposite conference they play 2 o 3 times.

Russell and Chamberlain played 80 games against 9 teams in 1962. They played each other a lot.

That my argument, there was even more competition for big men back then. .....

If you are talking about the modern athletes cardio routines, weight lifting etc.... guys from the earlier era would have been able to take advantage of those things and get EVEN BETTER.

[hairybyrd]

So what are you saying?

Can't compare players by era

[Wolves2011]

So what are you saying?

Can't compare players by era

It is hard to compare across eras, I'll agree with that.....

But if you don't even try, you have "knuckleheads" saying that Jordan was FAR better than anyone else in NBA history.

And that just isn't fair to guys like Russell, Chamberlain, Baylor, Oscar Robertson and others.

We forget NBA history if we don't TRY to compare across eras.

so while comparing across eras obviously isn't perfect.

There are advantages to trying.

Thats an important reason, I'm for it.!!

[hairybyrd]

Is 2011 your highschool graduation date? How old are you, seriously? because I'm debating on talking to you in the future. This isn't to be facetious, you're just starting to creep me out, so what's the magic number? Knowing your age would put a lot in perspective. Thanks. I'm 23.

[Wolves2011]

Is 2011 your highschool graduation date? How old are you, seriously? because I'm debating on talking to you in the future. This isn't to be facetious, you're just starting to creep me out, so what's the magic number? Knowing your age would put a lot in perspective. Thanks. I'm 23.

I'm much older than you more than double your age...so if you don't like talking to older people, I'm one of them......

the 2011 is the year, I hope the wolves start making a serious playoff run.

The have:

Jefferson
Love
?? SF weakness [gomes as bench guy]
Brewer - maybe
Flynn/Sessions

And lots of assets to trade or use to improve.

Right to Rubio and Pekovic (best center in Europe)
$15 million in cap space next summer
Wolves 1st round (probably top 5 with Jefferson and Love hurt)
Charlotte 1st round
Utah 1st round...

Jefferson was forecast (by Hollinger ESPN) to be the #2 center for PER this year (before injury)
Love was forecast to be the #4 PF for PER (again before injury)
Sessions was forecast to be #11 for PG ... but he isn't getting playing time, Rambis is playing Flynn
Flynn - was in top 3 in summer league [He was player of the month for July]

So the wolves have some talent and can add to it....

so 2011 is the year I hope the wolves start to move into the playoffs... and make some noise...

[hairybyrd]

So, presumably, you were born in the 60's or 70s and you don't believe that 60s racism (among many, many other factors) affected the NBA in its early years. Yeah, that's rich.

[sam_I_am]

After tonights game I think you have to pencil in Lebron James for the next 10 years! He was absolutely incredible. He had 4 blocks tonight that were all more impressive than Tayshaun Prince's block of Reggie Miller.

[GuyClinch]

Lebron brings a ton of physical talent to defense - and he is now starting to add some smarts and know how to his defense. Still I think Jordan was the best defensive swingman I ever saw.. Jordan had that cat like quickness. Pippen and Jordan would actually dominate teams defensively..it was crazy.

[Wolves2011]

Lebron brings a ton of physical talent to defense - and he is now starting to add some smarts and know how to his defense. Still I think Jordan was the best defensive swingman I ever saw.. Jordan had that cat like quickness. Pippen and Jordan would actually dominate teams defensively..it was crazy.

Rondo is one of three guards, in NBA history, to be in the top 3 in defensive win share, others being Jordan and Kidd. He did it last season. He is only 23 yo. You don't think Rondo deserves to be considered among great defensive guards?