Judging whatever or not an assist is an assist

[campybatman]

I'm curious, when is there ever a moment when a pass isn't an assist from a teammate. After watching this highlight video of Rondo's sixteen assist night versus Chicago. I've picked out three passes that I don't accept as being an assist.

Basically, an assist is when a player scores points as a result of his teammate's pass. However, this isn't always clear. In my opinion, a pass should count as an assist if 1) it's a catch-and-shoot, and 2) you catch the ball in stride as before dunking or coming off of a screen. Conversely, a pass shouldn't count as an assist if the teammate who receives the pass lifts his pivot foot, dribbles and adjust in some way to get off a better shot. If you watch this video, you'll see what I mean.

These aren't assists... I don't care if you don't care. But it's ridiculous how statistics can be skewed by lazy or biased interpretation by those who keep track of all of the live stats of active players during the game. It probably occurs with all teams.


Pass to Garnett - 0:03

Pass to Ray - 0:51

Pass to House - 2:51

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ovpt35Ed7o



This is a good read...

"Teams have a legitimate, vested interest in stats being inflated, just like the league does," Alex says. "Ten assists is way more interesting than eight assists. As humans, those are more appealing and interesting numbers. The NBA benefits and every team benefits from bigger, flashier numbers."

http://deadspin.com/5345287/the-confess ... corekeeper

[SonicYouth34]

Yeah, some of Rondo's assists didn't really look like assists.

[bawstin]

I had the exact same reaction to that video. And that deadspin article really makes you wonder about the value of statistical analysis in the NBA.

[GuyClinch]

Assists have always been the most suspect statistic. They are very reliant upon the scorer and of course the guy doing the scoring.

[bdawg]

i think a good pass lead to a foul should be an assist too, if not the pass, then the foul won't exist

[campybatman]

Here are other examples of when an assist didn't happen.

1. A player throws the ball off the backboard to himself, catches it and dunks or lays it in. You'll see this sometimes when a player is ahead on a fast break or has stolen the ball and has a clear path to the opposite basket.

2. A player throws the ball off the backboard, a teammate jumps up and catches it and dunks it. On the other hand, lobbing the ball up into the air for your teammate to catch it as you would for attempting an alley-oop is an assist.

If you make one hard bounce against the floor so that it goes straight up or you throw it against the backboard, this shouldn't count as an assist. Because there shouldn't be anything between you and your teammate when making a pass. The reason why bouncing it off the floor doesn't count is due to you not actually passing it to the intended teammate. Likewise, when the ball bounces away from the backboard.

3. If a shot (or layup) is taken by your teammate, it hits the rim or just doesn't fall through and you tip it in.

4. A player will intentionally bounce a ball of the back of an opposing player while inbounding the ball. This is usually a trick play and is the result of the defender turning his back to the player inbounding the ball.

[Cyclical]

Yup, that was a 13 assist night masquerading as 16. Unfortunately very common in the NBA. SOme could argue he had 15 assists - the one's to Ray and Eddie you pointed out are borderline since it was only 1 dribble to fake out the defender but the first one to KG is most definitely not an assist.

[Banks2Pierce]

The first one to KG was the only one that was not an assist to my eyes...that last one to Eddie was borderline, but I'd still call it one.

[Kefa461]

I'm curious, when is there ever a moment when a pass isn't an assist from a teammate. After watching this highlight video of Rondo's sixteen assist night versus Chicago. I've picked out three passes that I don't accept as being an assist.

Basically, an assist is when a player scores points as a result of his teammate's pass. However, this isn't always clear. In my opinion, a pass should count as an assist if 1) it's a catch-and-shoot, and 2) you catch the ball in stride as before dunking or coming off of a screen. Conversely, a pass shouldn't count as an assist if the teammate who receives the pass lifts his pivot foot, dribbles and adjust in some way to get off a better shot. If you watch this video, you'll see what I mean.

These aren't assists... I don't care if you don't care. But it's ridiculous how statistics can be skewed by lazy or biased interpretation by those who keep track of all of the live stats of active players during the game. It probably occurs with all teams.


Pass to Garnett - 0:03

Pass to Ray - 0:51

Pass to House - 2:51

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ovpt35Ed7o



This is a good read...

"Teams have a legitimate, vested interest in stats being inflated, just like the league does," Alex says. "Ten assists is way more interesting than eight assists. As humans, those are more appealing and interesting numbers. The NBA benefits and every team benefits from bigger, flashier numbers."

http://deadspin.com/5345287/the-confess ... corekeeper

As long as it's the same for Nash's 20 assists it's fair.....go check his tapes. You need to nick pick Rondo's. As for this....." I don't care if you don't care."....yes you do or you wouldn' t post it nor say it.

Just enjoy the win.

[lastgh0st]

2. A player throws the ball off the backboard, a teammate jumps up and catches it and dunks it. On the other hand, lobbing the ball up into the air for your teammate to catch it as you would for attempting an alley-oop is an assist.

If you make one hard bounce against the floor so that it goes straight up or you throw it against the backboard, this shouldn't count as an assist. Because there shouldn't be anything between you and your teammate when making a pass. The reason why bouncing it off the floor doesn't count is due to you not actually passing it to the intended teammate. Likewise, when the ball bounces away from the backboard.

I agree with 1, 3, and 4. You can't assist yourself and if it hits the rim thats a shot and not a pass in my book. I don't know about #2 though.

The 'off the floor' pass is just a bounce pass... Why isn't that an assist? A bounce pass is an assist for every shot besides an alley-oop? Maybe I'm picturing it incorrectly. I would agree if it's to yourself.

And off the back board is basically the same thing as a bounce pass just not using the floor. I think the best example was the TA to Gerald play at the end of that Toronto game a few years back. I dunno that seemed like an assist to me. Would it be a missed shot for Tony and then a rebound and 2 for Gerald?

I agree with the no dribble thing but its been one dribble (regretably sometimes more) for a long time now. Cousy did just fine when they would only count you directly going into the shot. But they put up 30+ more attempts a game so giving the guy one dribble levels the playing field to sort of (not really) make comparisions easier.

[elrod enchilada]

Assists is a smushy category, and you just have to hope it is done consistently. The NBA has been quite liberal in its interpretation for many decades; much more so than European or possibly even college ball.

But even if applied consistently it is an imperfect measure.

The three main problems beyond determining exactly where one draws the line between an assist and a pass are these three:

1. a player makes a very good pass to create a great look and a high-percentage shot, and then the shooter misses the shot. The passer has done his job. Hopefully the loosy-goosy assists and lucky shots balance these out. I remember around five or six years ago I kept track of the number of times Paul Pierce made good passes to open teammates for high percentage shots that the shooters simply blew. It was like two-four per game during the stretch I monitored this. Those would have been assists with better teammates.

2. what someone mentioned, a great pass that leads to a foul is not an assist, unless the shot is made during the foul. But the pass created the chance for the shooting foul.

3. the hockey assist -- the pass to the player who then immediately makes the pass that becomes the assist, is not included. These are the sort of passes great point guards (and passers in general) make because they see the floor so well. This is basketball at its best. e.g. the pass from Rondo to Rasheed that Sheed then sent out to Pierce (I think) for a 3 in the Bulls game.

When the Cs are humming, KG and Rondo get a bushel of hockey assists.

The reason none of these is counted because the NBA only awards assists for made baskets and only one assist per basket. I understand. But I think a broader assist category that included no. 2 and no. 3 would be valuable.

[Hemingway]

I think players tend to get more assists at home games as their guy is the one counting them. I'm too lazy to try and look this up but I would bet it is true.

[campybatman]

2. A player throws the ball off the backboard, a teammate jumps up and catches it and dunks it. On the other hand, lobbing the ball up into the air for your teammate to catch it as you would for attempting an alley-oop is an assist.

If you make one hard bounce against the floor so that it goes straight up or you throw it against the backboard, this shouldn't count as an assist. Because there shouldn't be anything between you and your teammate when making a pass. The reason why bouncing it off the floor doesn't count is due to you not actually passing it to the intended teammate. Likewise, when the ball bounces away from the backboard.

I agree with 1, 3, and 4. You can't assist yourself and if it hits the rim thats a shot and not a pass in my book. I don't know about #2 though.

The 'off the floor' pass is just a bounce pass... Why isn't that an assist? A bounce pass is an assist for every shot besides an alley-oop? Maybe I'm picturing it incorrectly. I would agree if it's to yourself.

And off the back board is basically the same thing as a bounce pass just not using the floor. I think the best example was the TA to Gerald play at the end of that Toronto game a few years back. I dunno that seemed like an assist to me. Would it be a missed shot for Tony and then a rebound and 2 for Gerald?

I agree with the no dribble thing but its been one dribble (regretably sometimes more) for a long time now. Cousy did just fine when they would only count you directly going into the shot. But they put up 30+ more attempts a game so giving the guy one dribble levels the playing field to sort of (not really) make comparisions easier.

As said, nothing should come between you and your teammate. The three variables here are you, your teammate and the floor or the backboard. If I bounce the ball hard off the floor, my intended target is indeed the floor and not the teammate. What if the teammate doesn't catch the ball in mid-air? It would be a violation on my part, thus being ruled a turnover and lost of possession. However, I can see where confusion can occur depending on one's interpretation of my description. That's why I clearly wrote: "If you make one hard bounce against the floor so that it goes straight up..." Clearly, I wasn't referring to a bounce pass across the floor to a likely streaking teammate toward the opposite basket. Still, even in that scenario, I still have a tough time accepting it as an assist, or in either case. The assist is the floor, not the player who was the facilitator. The bounce is the result of the initial impact of hitting a hard surface. Simply, I don't bounce it, the ball remains with me as in dribbling the ball. The same thinking applies to the backboard. It's the same argument... The floor is horizontal, and the backboard is vertical. Two different perspectives but the same flat surface.

I guess I've a different point of view than most. I don't believe the ball should touch the floor during the process of passing to a teammate. Why throw it off the backboard? What was wrong with me simply passing it directly to you, in front of you or what have you.

[GuyClinch]

Assists are just suspect stats in general because more then any other stat they depend on another player - even more then the player who wins credit. Rajon Rondo makes plenty of "swing" passes to 3 point shooters that lead to field goals. There of course is nothing wrong with this pass but its quite generic. It's given more value then a pass on the button to guy under the basket - who then gets fouled on his layup attempt.

Someone watching basketball clearly wanted to find ways to give some 'credit' to the passer. Assists do that but they don't really factor into any serious analysis of what happened in the game, IMHO. I have seen teams win without getting credit for even ten assists. OTOH teams can lose while racking up tons of 'assists" - especially at home.

Pete

[Hemingway]

Yeah it is a hard stat to get right every time, but at the end of the day, how else are you going to keep a stat on passing? The problem really is how some of us fall head over heals in love with stats. Really makes ya sick.

[lastgh0st]

I guess I've a different point of view than most. I don't believe the ball should touch the floor during the process of passing to a teammate. Why throw it off the backboard? What was wrong with me simply passing it directly to you, in front of you or what have you.

Ahh, alright, I understand. It's just a difference in either viewing intent or what the basketball actually does. This has to be why every team also has their own personal scorekeepers (besides also recording things like deflections). It would be interesting to see their numbers and what they record.

Anyway, that deadspin article was great, good read.

[SichtingLives]

bonsai, good topic. This is just one of the stats that I don't weigh too strongly due to the variables which go into recording an assist. Besides the pass that sets up the shooter getting fouled, what about the routine or even poor pass followed by an incredible shot? Or the amazing pass that Perk (for example) can't keep his hands on, or the many other valid examples posters have pointed out?

It's a good general measurement against the rest of the league but doesn't say very much specifically about a player, other than the fact that they tend to pass the ball and their teammates tend to put it in the basket. There's a whole lot of gray area going on that it doesn't account for, just like many other stats. I more or less feel the same way about boards but that's a different discussion.

[campybatman]

Yeah, there's the gray area when talking about assists. For example, what if the ball was intended for teammate two but teammate three caught it after being tipped by an opponent, or it simply went through teammate two's fingers. In the NFL, a pass from the quarterback still would count as a completion in the event that the intended receiver doesn't catch the pass but while it was, let's say, tipped into the air, and another receiver in the vicinity of the ball catches it. So, if you apply that same logic to the NBA, if Rondo passes it to Pierce near the basket, but the pass is deflected into the hands of Perkins and he lays it in. Then Rondo gets an assist as long as the pass never touches the floor and Perkins scores without putting the ball down to dribble which would break the continual motion of the initial pass.

Also, it likely won't count as an assist if the pass to your teammate is caught and scored but the points are taken away due to a penalty that occurred on your team prior to the made basket. Let's say I was guilty of a moving pick before my teammate received the pass, came off the screen and hit a jump shot. Or the referee doesn't award the continuation of the made basket since it came after an offensive foul. So there would've been an assist if not for the offensive foul. Another odd example would be... What if I intentionally miss a free throw for the purpose of enabling my teammate to presumingly catch it for two points. So, if it hit the rim, he grabs it and puts it in. Do I get an assist? I say no. Because I missed the shot on purpose but it still wasn't a pass. I just timed a missed free throw so that my teammate can hopefully rebound it and score.