It's the Offense, Stupid....

[GreenDreamer]

If you had a clue about the game of basketball, Pete, you would realize that Rondo proved me right in every detail against the Warriors. In fact, it was a very nice case of compare and contrast against the same team, in the same game. First half, Doc's BS spread it around offense. Second half the offense running almost exclusively through Rondo, with picks being set for him on almost every possession. Did ya notice a difference, big guy?

The funniest part about it was that the Celtics missed SO MANY wide open shots in the second half. ondo just kept working the Warriors over time and again, setting up his teammates. Sometimes he turned down the picks, and hit guys in the post. Sometimes, he used the picks as a feint and either drove in the other direction, or rotated the ball to the weakside... depending upon how the Warriors were shading the defense. Most of the time, though, he used those picks, and used the VERY effectively. It was a clinic on how to utterly blow up a team defense.

He wasn't even "sharp", by the way. That wasn't the "uberRondo" out there, seemingly doing everything right. He did plenty of things wrong. The approach itself, and the Warriors COMPLETE inability to stop him was what mattered. If he and his teammates were hot, they might have put up a 40+ point quarter with relative ease in the 3rd, and I don't think that any coach would be happy giving Eddie House that many wide open looks at the basket. Eddie could just as easily have gone 8 for 10 as 4 for 10, considering that on half of his shots, no one was even near him.... they were all worried about Rondo barging into the paint. Eddie was high fiving Rondo after missing a couple of wide open shots (Eddie that is), simply because Rondo was getting him looks that he hasn't seen in a LONG time.

Don't even THINK about falling back on the tired "They are only the Warriors". If that was a valid argument, then why were we so crappy in the first half? Our defense picked up? That's nice. You know what really can help a defense crank up the intensity? Seeing the ball go into the basket on the other end, instead of a friggin clown show. That your stops actually COUNT for something, because you are going to punch the other team in the mouth when you have the ball.

This talk of "aggressiveness" is for the birds. There is no chance that Rondo wants to be surrendering the ball to these guys. None. The BS offensive approach of "getting it to the Big Three" and working off of them is an INEFFICIENT use of this team's talent. Rondo is better at getting them good looks than they are themselves. Passing the ball to them when they are in a good position to score, or a better position to hit the next guy with a pass is one thing. Simply handing it to them at the start of a set is another.

The biggest thing, though, is the fundemental fact that Rondo is the catalyst for this team. Get him rolling, and we are almost impossible to beat. Take the ball out of his hands, and swing him over to the weakside to watch INFERIOR playmakers botch up the show, and we become a VERY beatable team. That much was on display last night.

[GreenDreamer]

The biggest question in this thread is one of responsibility. Does Rondo sometimes 'float' through the game, playing passively and without purpose, acting basically as a non-shooting Eddie House, sitting in the corner unguarded; or does Doc, with his desire to get shot attempts for the Big 3, sometimes take the ball out of Rondo's hands in order to facilitate iso situations for Paul/Ray? For the most part, I go back and forth in my head, blaming Rondo for floating in some games and blaming Doc for taking the ball out his hands in others. But check out this quote from Rondo following the Warrior game:

"We started calling plays for me in the pick-and-roll," Rondo said. "Sometimes when they switch, they'd show and get back. We tried to keep mixing it up with the play call and just get to the rim."

http://espn.go.com/boston/columns/celti ... e/forsberg

According to Rondo, at least, it was a matter of Doc calling his number, putting him in multiple pick-and-roll situations in the 2nd half and letting him take over. To me, that points to a problem of play-calling and Doc's overbearing attitude towards Rondo. It's not that Rondo's playing passive, it's that he's being told what to do and he's following instructions and that sometimes makes him seem like he's passive. He's not--he's just being the ball caddy that Doc wants. I think we can all agree that an aggressive Rondo makes us a pretty unbeatable team--and if we get that Rondo when we call pick and rolls for him, then it's seems asinine when we go entire games without utilizing him. Therefore, Doc needs to understand that Rondo needs the freedom to call his own number--because as we saw Wed. when he's getting his number called the entire team seems to take their energy to another level.

I was also excited (temporarily, I'm afraid) to see Doc give Rondo the responsibility of being the bridge to the 2nd team. It saves the legs of Ray/Paul (who don't have to bridge the 2nd unit themselves) and, if we keep putting Rondo in pick and roll situations, it also unleashes the potential of the entire 2nd unit to play well, not to mention the easy buckets Rondo himself can come up with. I think GreenDreamer is right--Doc is the one holding Rondo back, especially when he takes the ball out his hands to give Ray/Paul iso opportunities.

Rondo wants those picks. I haven't the slightest doubt in my mind about that. He wants them consistently too, which is something Doc did for the first time in last night's game. Doc didn't simply bail on Rondo when a couple of possessions went awry. He stuck with him, and it paid off with more offensive splurges.

I was happy to see Doc FINALLY go with Rondo in the second unit. He's going to need some time to build some chemistry with them, but it should pay off big time looking forward. The guy who you could see was over the moon that he was playing with Rondo again was Eddie. People forget, but Rondo and Eddie had quite a bit of chemistry going with each other last season, and were even a very solid pairing in the playoffs. Rajon gets Eddie his looks in a way that no one else on the team can.

Sheed needs to stop looking to shoot a three every time he sets a pick for Rajon. If Rondo drives to the basket and gets shut off, he will pass the ball back to KG who will either take his elbow jumper, or hit somebody with a pass, which is a very effective offensive approach for us. Sheed, though, goes all the way out to the arc EVERY time, and jacks that ball up. He has to stop doing that, and mix it up a bit. At least look to rotate the ball. He has shot some threes with a hand in his face, when Ray was one pass away and wide open in some recent games. Who is the best option in that scenario?

Rajon will learn how to utlize Marquis and Sheldon with time. They both can knock down shots from midrange, and both have real value around the basket, and are smart players. Rajon will get them involved.

I'm just hoping that Doc FINALLY realized what needs to happen on this team. That the offense has to flow through Rajon. I actually want him to not have the ball as much as he did against the Warriors, on the average, and mix some of the other stuff in to keep teams off balance. The thing is that he's the guy who gets everyone else UP. The catalyst for the offense.

The ball caddy line was a good one, Ryan. Even better than my ball valet bit.

[GreenDreamer]

Just thought that I'd give this one a bump. The solution to the problem was aleays Rondo. It took Doc a while to realize this, but he eventually did. Rondo couldn't control the offense our exert his influence on the game with the way that things were being run early on. He played efficiently within the framework of the touches allowed him, but that was a very different thing from running the offense THROUGH him.

Never forget that this team is at its best when #9 is calling the shots. Doc forgot that, let's hope that doesn't happen again.

[aboubata]

Just thought that I'd give this one a bump. The solution to the problem was aleays Rondo. It took Doc a while to realize this, but he eventually did. Rondo couldn't control the offense our exert his influence on the game with the way that things were being run early on. He played efficiently within the framework of the touches allowed him, but that was a very different thing from running the offense THROUGH him.

Never forget that this team is at its best when #9 is calling the shots. Doc forgot that, let's hope that doesn't happen again.

I think it more lester, lets hope he doesn't forget to play Rondo 1-1.

give it up dude and let this thread go away.

[GreenDreamer]

Just thought that I'd give this one a bump. The solution to the problem was aleays Rondo. It took Doc a while to realize this, but he eventually did. Rondo couldn't control the offense our exert his influence on the game with the way that things were being run early on. He played efficiently within the framework of the touches allowed him, but that was a very different thing from running the offense THROUGH him.

Never forget that this team is at its best when #9 is calling the shots. Doc forgot that, let's hope that doesn't happen again.

I think it more lester, lets hope he doesn't forget to play Rondo 1-1.

give it up dude and let this thread go away.

It's more Lester? So "more Lester" has translated into Rondo having the ball twice as much as he did before? OK, if you want to believe that BS, then go right on ahead. Me? I'm going to live in the real world where Rondo didn't magically become "aggressive." Where the things I pointed out in this thread BEFORE they happened eneded up being the difference between victory and losing in quite a few games recently. Ya know, the ones wher you lot were whining about the defense.


Who is crying about the defense now?

[GuyClinch]

Yeah don't come to us crying later on when in the playoffs we start adjusting if teams play us differently. Doc just reacts to what teams try to do to us. If they play Rondo pick and rolls poorly - Rondo pick and rolls it is. <g>

[aboubata]

Just thought that I'd give this one a bump. The solution to the problem was aleays Rondo. It took Doc a while to realize this, but he eventually did. Rondo couldn't control the offense our exert his influence on the game with the way that things were being run early on. He played efficiently within the framework of the touches allowed him, but that was a very different thing from running the offense THROUGH him.

Never forget that this team is at its best when #9 is calling the shots. Doc forgot that, let's hope that doesn't happen again.

I think it more lester, lets hope he doesn't forget to play Rondo 1-1.

give it up dude and let this thread go away.

It's more Lester? So "more Lester" has translated into Rondo having the ball twice as much as he did before? OK, if you want to believe that BS, then go right on ahead. Me? I'm going to live in the real world where Rondo didn't magically become "aggressive." Where the things I pointed out in this thread BEFORE they happened eneded up being the difference between victory and losing in quite a few games recently. Ya know, the ones wher you lot were whining about the defense.


Who is crying about the defense now?

Let me try to be sarcastic again, hold my hand and let me show you something.
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/rajon_ron ... stats.html

Rajon averages about 10 shots a game, and about 10 assists, and they are both equaly needed.
the 10 assists won't happen if the other 4 guys on the floor don't hit their shot, which was happening before
the 10 shots won't happen if he doesn't take a few outside shots, which wasn't happening before
When Rondos man is helping of him and not giving him the respect and Rondo isn't making him pay then Doc has to take him out

Rondo driving to the basket and dishing is as important as
1. KG hitting a 20 footer
2. Ray and Eddie hitting a 3 point shot
3. Perk cleaning the glass
4. PP hitting that midrange fadeaway
This my friend is a 5 man sports, and just like I hated putting the ball in PP hands in the 4th last year, I would hate it if we made Rondo the focus of this team offense. I would go watch the Heat if that is what I liked.

As for the defense, yes it is needed to win games, ask the raptors. Watch the game tonigth and see what happens if these guys don't play good defense and work on every play

[ryaningf]

Yeah don't come to us crying later on when in the playoffs we start adjusting if teams play us differently. Doc just reacts to what teams try to do to us. If they play Rondo pick and rolls poorly - Rondo pick and rolls it is. <g>

EVERY team plays the Rondo pick and rolls poorly.

It's not just the Rondo pick and roll; it's what putting Rondo in a pick and roll does to the ENTIRE team--those picks actually engender more player movement, more picking, and better ball movement.

You continue to compartmentalize the game of basketball to the detriment of your analysis. You continue to ignore (and have yet to even address in ANY of your posts) the meta-impact of what picking for Rondo does for the ENTIRE TEAM. It's not necessarily about what Rondo does to the other team, or if he has an advantageous matchup, or how many assists he gets, or how many jumpers he takes and makes--those are secondary actions. It's all about the effect on the ENTIRE TEAM and how setting picks for Rondo makes the ENTIRE TEAM play selfless, winning basketball predicated on passing, moving without the ball, and setting picks.

Every other style we play--the Ray/Paul iso routine, the Paul/KG pick-and-roll play, etc...--actually result in less ball movement, more standing around, and less picking--all things that make us supremely easy to defend.

It is all about the offense and GreenDreamer had it spotted from Day 1. With the ball in Rondo's hands, we're at our best against any team.

[SuigintouEV]

Replace Rondo with point guard like Mo williams and the offense wouldn't be a problem IMHO

[GuyClinch]

Every other style we play--the Ray/Paul iso routine, the Paul/KG pick-and-roll play, etc...--actually result in less ball movement, more standing around, and less picking--all things that make us supremely easy to defend.

Not every Rondo pick and roll leads to a basket - just like not every Paul/KG pick and roll or any other play. Your just speculating the outcome of these plays and have no proof outside of your biased opinion. As I explained before teams adjust to various plays. The idea that we should limit our offense to Rondo pick and rolls is laughable. Our multifacted attack is best - which of course is the same system we have been running all along.

I don't have a problem with Doc skewing the offense to something that works - but don't come crying when he feels its not working and starts his plays off with something different. NBA teams aren't that stupid. Rondo isn't some superman that can always get his team baskets. Its like an MLB pitcher. Sure a fastball is a great pitch but most pitchers fair much better when they mix it up.

Pete

[ryaningf]

Every other style we play--the Ray/Paul iso routine, the Paul/KG pick-and-roll play, etc...--actually result in less ball movement, more standing around, and less picking--all things that make us supremely easy to defend.

Not every Rondo pick and roll leads to a basket - just like not every Paul/KG pick and roll or any other play. Your just speculating the outcome of these plays and have no proof outside of your biased opinion. As I explained before teams adjust to various plays. The idea that we should limit our offense to Rondo pick and rolls is laughable. Our multifacted attack is best - which of course is the same system we have been running all along.

The idea that you actually read what I write is getting pretty laughable. Nobody said anything about limiting our offense to Rondo pick and rolls. What was said is that it should be emphasized because it brings about the best basketball from our guys. From time to time, pick and rolls with Paul/Ray and KG are great calls, especially at the end of the game. What isn't a great call is doing that all game, or especially starting off the game that way.

Again, feel free (and take your time, please) to respond to my actual claim, which is that emphasizing the Rondo pick and roll game has the effect of engendering more ball movement, better spacing, and more picking. Still waiting...

[GuyClinch]

The idea that you actually read what I write is getting pretty laughable. Nobody said anything about limiting our offense to Rondo pick and rolls. What was said is that it should be emphasized because it brings about the best basketball from our guys. From time to time, pick and rolls with Paul/Ray and KG are great calls, especially at the end of the game. What isn't a great call is doing that all game, or especially starting off the game that way.

Oh please your just nitpicking now. So Doc is doing fine with his mix of plays now? Good. I don't think its changed much. Rondo always had the bulk of plays set for him. You were just being hypercritical during the Celtics brief "rough time."