OT: Kobe vs. Jordan vs. Bird

[davidse]

to each his own when it comes to chosing between bird and kobe offensively (overall game, because as a scoring machine - kobe is second to none).

but when you want to complete the picture with the defensive end of the floor - bird is left in kobe's dust for this comparison.

i loved bird - even as a laker fan.

kobe bryant is a better basketball player.

either that, or your whole russel agenda goes out the window because apparently defense is all of a sudden NOT that important ?...


kobe vs. jordan is debatable, most would probably go with jordan, while people who have followed kobe closely for his entire career (of which he's only in the prime of...) may say differnetly.

but kobe vs. bird is an easy call for anyone who isn't a celtic fan - and probably to some celtic fans too.

and i'll say it again - i was a bird fan to the same extent i was a magic fan in the 80's.
and as a laker fan - that's saying something...

[chakdaddy]

How good would Kobe and Jordan be if they were average athletically? For a player that was average athletically, Bird was the best greatest player of all time. If Bird had the same athletic ability as Jordan or Kobe, he would be much better than both of those guys.

Bird is still better than Kobe because Bird made the players around him better. Jordan was better than Bird for most of his career, but between 1984-1987, no one was better than Bird, not even Jordan.

That was Bird's peak, but '81-84 and '87-88 weren't much worse at all; and I think you could make that same statement. And by then you're encompassing most of Bird's career.

I would reverse it and say Bird was better than Jordan for most of his career, but from 1989-1993, no one was better than Jordan, not even Bird.

[davidse]

Magic Johnson was a better overall player than Bird and not a freak athlete by any means. Bird himself believes this to be the case.

Bird and Magic are close and definitely the best 2 I've ever seen. Magic gets underrated for some reason since he didn't score or shoot like the other guys, but he's right there with Bird. Jordan was more selfish and was propped up by referees and weak competition more than anyone else, that drops him to 3rd. If you look at the stats, Jordan only touched Bird for a couple of years around '90, '91. Kobe has all of Jordan's qualities but amplified - maybe more athletic, better shooter, maybe even better defender, but also somehow MORE selfish, and that puts him a step behind Jordan.

LeBron needs a little more consistency on his jumper, but his stats rival '90, '91 Jordan, and well, 1980-88 Bird as basically the best ever. So he could catch them eventually. Kobe never will.

Russell and Wilt and Robertson are right there with Bird and Magic but it's harder for me to rate them since I didn't see them. Honestly, Russell is probably the greatest of all.

even a huge kobe fan like myself has to disagree with you about the athletic ability.
jordan was a much better athlete than kobe - and kobe is/was a great athlete.

and disagree about kobe being more selfish than m.j.
only when it's needed - when the other guys don't show up - just like against the cavs the other night,
or when his teammates are named kwame, george, cook, smush, and slava (and he leads those scrubs to within one rebound of eliminating phx's great team...).
jordan never played with these kind of scrubs in his prime, and when he did as a younger player - he was just as selfish if not more than kobe - and rightfully so (for both of them).

just my 2 c's.

[sam_I_am]

I completely disagree that Kobe is a better player than Bird. However, with Bird you have to factor in longevity and he just didn't have it. Sure, he would have been awesome as a rookie if he had gone pro at age 20 because he really was the MVP of the league as a rookie - nobody in history and nobody will ever again have the impact that he had. To join a team with the worst record in NBA and as a rookie lead a team to best record in NBA is unheard of. Compare that to the Kobe led teams in wake of Shaq trade - a Bird led team when healthy was never that bad - even before McHale and Parish joined the roster. Jordan too could not elevate his teammates as a young player the way Bird immediatly did out of college.

And if you want to discuss defense - man to man Bird was not the best. But he was considered one of the best zone defenders to ever play NCAA basketball. Zone defense is as much about anticipation and trusting your teammates as it is about skill. And nobody would have dared to try to stop Bird with a zone. He would destroy zone defenses because his quick release and ridiculous FG% (53) for an outside shooter.

Please..... Bird would absolutely tear up modern zones which only work because today's average player doesn't shoot or pass nearly as well as players in the Bird era. The rule changes which make ball hogging, traveling, palming, double dribbling etc. okay for superstars like Lebron or Wade are better defended with a zone. Great shooters like Bird, Nash, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller etc. were in more abundance in the 80's than now. It is rare that a team has one good shooter now. In the 80's most teams had 3-4.

However, as far as Kobe not belonging in this discussion, it just isn't true. Kobe will have the stats at the end of his career to compare to anybody and that will automatically put him in any discussion of all time greats. And as usual, the more current player gets favored.

[sam_I_am]

Magic Johnson was a better overall player than Bird and not a freak athlete by any means. Bird himself believes this to be the case.

Bird and Magic are close and definitely the best 2 I've ever seen. Magic gets underrated for some reason since he didn't score or shoot like the other guys, but he's right there with Bird. Jordan was more selfish and was propped up by referees and weak competition more than anyone else, that drops him to 3rd. If you look at the stats, Jordan only touched Bird for a couple of years around '90, '91. Kobe has all of Jordan's qualities but amplified - maybe more athletic, better shooter, maybe even better defender, but also somehow MORE selfish, and that puts him a step behind Jordan.

LeBron needs a little more consistency on his jumper, but his stats rival '90, '91 Jordan, and well, 1980-88 Bird as basically the best ever. So he could catch them eventually. Kobe never will.

Russell and Wilt and Robertson are right there with Bird and Magic but it's harder for me to rate them since I didn't see them. Honestly, Russell is probably the greatest of all.

even a huge kobe fan like myself has to disagree with you about the athletic ability.
jordan was a much better athlete than kobe - and kobe is/was a great athlete.

and disagree about kobe being more selfish than m.j.
only when it's needed - when the other guys don't show up - just like against the cavs the other night,
or when his teammates are named kwame, george, cook, smush, and slava (and he leads those scrubs to within one rebound of eliminating phx's great team...).
jordan never played with these kind of scrubs in his prime, and when he did as a younger player - he was just as selfish if not more than kobe - and rightfully so (for both of them).

just my 2 c's.

Jordan was very selfish but he almost always delivered. His turnovers of 2 compared to 3.2 of Kobe speaks volumes. Jordan could hog the ball and have it actually be good for the team. I actually think Gasol, Odom, Artest are good enough to command more shots. The Lakers without Kobe would still be a 50+ win team. The Bulls were a good team without Jordan also but there is no denying a run of 6 championships in 6 1/2 seasons with Jordan hogging the ball.

[Captain_Caveman]

Yeah. I dont see how Lakers fans take it as some type of insult when people when people say Kobe isnt top 10 all time. He's somewhere between 10-15. He'll players should be honored to even crack 100 All time to tell you the truth.

I'm A Celtics fan and I take this as an insult... to my intelligence, lol.

The idea that Kobe isn't Top 10 All-Time is probably the worst take I have ever read on this forum.

[kaiiu2324]

Who is Kobe better than on the top 10 All time list. Jordan,no. Magic,no. Bird,no. Wilt,no. Kareem,no. Russell,no. Oscar,no .Shaq,no. Timmy,debatable. To tell you the truth, Kobe is a career 2nd option and to be that high on the All time great list is a HUGE compliment.

[TonyMontana]

Yeah. I dont see how Lakers fans take it as some type of insult when people when people say Kobe isnt top 10 all time. He's somewhere between 10-15. He'll players should be honored to even crack 100 All time to tell you the truth.

I'm A Celtics fan and I take this as an insult... to my intelligence, lol.

The idea that Kobe isn't Top 10 All-Time is probably the worst take I have ever read on this forum.

I agree and not only that CC but the fact that we are talking about different players within different eras isnt really fair. I mean the game is so much more different now than it was 10 years ago or even 20 years ago.
I hate when people compare players to other players.

Larry has his own legacy and so does MJ, Kobe is setting his own legacy, so how about we judge Kobe or K.G as well as other players within their own era that have established themselves in the NBA for what they have achieved or what they are achieving.

[return2glory]

How good would Kobe and Jordan be if they were average athletically? For a player that was average athletically, Bird was the best greatest player of all time. If Bird had the same athletic ability as Jordan or Kobe, he would be much better than both of those guys.

Bird is still better than Kobe because Bird made the players around him better. Jordan was better than Bird for most of his career, but between 1984-1987, no one was better than Bird, not even Jordan.

Magic Johnson was a better overall player than Bird and not a freak athlete by any means. Bird himself believes this to be the case.

Are you kidding?? Bird won 3 straight MVP's of the league during this time. Only two other players in the history of the NBA have done that.

[sam_I_am]

Bird was the best player early in careers - 80-86 and Magic was better from 86-90. Overall, Magic was better for longer and won more championships. In comparing those 2 the only way to separate them is championships and Bird only won 3 and lost 2. Magic won 5 and lost 2 or 3. They both played on the 2 best teams of the 80's and both had equivalent complimentary talent.

History might judge them differently if Len Bias lived or if Red drafted Tim Hardaway instead of Michael Smith as the LA front office was superior in the late 80's and early 90's at maintaining the dynasty. But as it stands - even as a Celtics diehard - Magic gets the edge over Bird.

Has Kobe ever dominated a game entirely without scoring a point? Can he? Magic carried the team in the finals scoring 42 as a center. And yet he destroyed teams scoring less than 10 pts. In my opinion, he is the best player I have seen in my span of being a fan which is 1979 to present. Bird in his prime was second and MJ was 3rd. However, what MJ did winning 6 championships as a one man show is so unique and his defensive dominance probably does make him the best to ever play the game.

A case can be made for all. When you survey hundreds of expert opinions though it is usually MJ>Magic>Bird.