Has the Big Three Era Closed?

[Celtics_85]

Ray Allen has lost some of his pep, but I don't think he is done by any means. I believe he would be better suited at this time to come off the bench for this team. With less minutes ( 26-28 ) I think he can still be valuable to this team.
I have noticed that many teams are just playing the passing lanes because Rondo is really the only player on the starting unit that can beat his guy off the dribble. When Ray and Paul have the ball they really aren't doubled, so teams play the passing lanes which causes many stupid passes to become turnovers. For a veteran team like this turnovers shouldn't be such a factor, but it is for them. Once Daniels comes back we will have two guys on the bench that can take their guys off the dribble with TA being the other guy. Why not start one of these guys and bring Ray off the bench? If Ray were to come off the bench then House could become redundant on this team, and if he could be packaged with Scal or Davis to bring in a decent PG I would go for it in a second.

[return2glory]

BRUNiNHO91, what is it that you aren't getting? I'm speaking English. Paul Pierce can't take over games on a regular basis anymore. If we could, he would. We don't have a go to guy on offense in the 4th quarter anymore. Why do you think we can't hold leads any more? Pierce used to be that guy, but not anymore.

In his prime, Pierce would get to the line about 10 times a game. Now it's like 5 or 6. He used to be one of the top scorers in the 4th quarter. Not anymore. The reason Pierce is taking only 12 shots a game now is because he is having a hard time getting clean shots. Pierce doesn't drive to the basket half as much as he used to. Most of his 15 points today were on open 3's. It's not the game plan, it's that Pierce is older now and is playing with a banged up knee.

[Jammer]

Although the performances in the past 3 games cast grave doubts about the
future expected performances from the starting lineup,
and the rebounding numbers for Paul Pierce and Ray Allen worry me,
and the alpha, beta, kappa order of go to guys at the end of games concerns me,
I am more worried about players 5 thru 8 than the Celtics top 4 players.

I actually think that cutting Ray's minutes down to 31 mpg is not going to affect his production.

Ditto Paul, if he can be cut down to 34 mpg, which since Pierce is only 32,
should not be a problem, except Pierce does not take care of himself the
way that KG and Ray take care of their bodies.

What concerns me is Perk's ability to score in the playoffs,
Sheed is taking way too many shots out of the post,
Eddie is not quite there with his shot,
and no one else besides these 7 players can be relied on in the playoffs.

So, what I'm thinking that might be done is we stop using Sheed as a floor spreading PF or C.
No more 3's. He doesn't shoot a good enough percentage.
Make Sheed strictly a low post threat, since he can be better at this than Perkins.

Now, the Celtics only have 4 shooters (Pierce, Ray, KG and Eddie);
and KG has been off. Let's assume he gets back to 54%, even if he doens't score
as many points as he used to.

Danny can upgrade what he's got with a 3 point shooting backup SF,
that would improve the rebounding because Ray would not be played out of position.

Again, Ray and Paul's rebounding numbers are down, and Pierce is the
3rd best rebounder on the team.

If Wyc can someone find a backup SF that can spread the floor, leaving
Sheed in the post, then they get spacing and size.

I still believe trades are out there if Wyc is willing to throw in $W3 Million cash and some picks.
And they have to get a true backup for Rondo, because Pierce can't handle the ball
well enough, and neither can Ray, Eddie or Tony.

I really think that Scal is crap, when you come right down to it, and so is Davis. I really don't want to see these guys in the playoffs. Davis is a long way from where he was in last years playoffs,
which may have simply been a hot shooting aberration and not the norm that so many posters
here want to credit Davis as being able to regularly achieve.

The amount of times Pierce and Davis got stuffed or blocked the past 3 games made me sick in
the stomach.

So, to reiterate, the floor spacing, 3 point shooting SF would improve rebounding and
enable Sheed to stay in the low post, and still provide spacing. Sheed would take less shots
than he does now unless he wants to shoot them inside 15 feet.

This would allow Ray's minutes to be cut down, and the back up PG would allow Rondo a breather.
These trades really should have happened before camp, and I still blame Danny and his damn
happy go lucky "I like our team" and "I don't want to upset our team chemistry" naivety
when the talent deficiencies were just as loud and obvious to any one watching the games,
and only an amateur looking at won loss record or point differetial would have been fooled.
Wyc and the owners might have been fooled, but the coaching staff and front office were supposed
to kow exactly what this teams shortcomings were on October 1. They were just as obvious then.

So, it's time Danny sits down with Wyc and Steve and papa Wyc and convinces these kiddies
that if they want to do something this season, they get some help, at two positions, before the
trade deadline.

One of the reasons that Auerach was such a genius,
with winning records in 40 out of 43 seasons,
is he recoginzed the shortcomings before everyone else,
and made the adjustments way ahead of the general public realizing what he was doing.

This ownership group is no where near as proactive as Red.
The fact that they have not made a single trade of significance for 2.5 seasons,
since KG, speaks volumes. At least having Posey's contract around would have given them
something to trade besides Giddens and Walker and Williams scrap contracts,
which is part of their problem. But it's not too late, they just have to be prepared to
play in the big time. And if they're not deep pocked enough to do it, then
these kids are in the wrong poker game.

[Captain_Caveman]

For what we are paying KG/Ray/Pierce this year, we could afford a starting lineup of:

Chris Paul
Brandon Roy
LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Dwight Howard

And still have Rondo, Perkins and Sheed off the bench.

Yeah, I cheated with a couple of rookie contracts, but think about that for like half a second.

Damn.

[Hemingway]

Did anyone at the start of the season think that this team was not going to struggle midway through? Its hard to play at a high level every game when your old and tired. The only question is if we are going to be healthy by the playoffs.

[tombattor]

For what we are paying KG/Ray/Pierce this year, we could afford a starting lineup of:

Chris Paul
Brandon Roy
LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Dwight Howard

And still have Rondo, Perkins and Sheed off the bench.

Yeah, I cheated with a couple of rookie contracts, but think about that for like half a second.

Damn.

Well, every single team in the league can say something similar. But unless you had the #1 picks in the years Lebron and D-Howard came out, you're not getting those guys. It's not like we had a chance at getting Lebron, but decided to go with KG. If we could have gotten Lebron for Big Al, Bruins and half of Boston residents' souls, Danny would have done it.

But then half the people on this board said they wouldn't trade Big Al for Lebron straight up, so I guess it's all moot.

[GreenPiece]

I think we pretty much have to let it die. Ray Allen is pretty much done. KG will probably never be healthy again except for short stretches. Paul hasn't started to decline yet, but it can't be far off.

If I were Danny I would refrain from any deals like Ray for Iggy+Dalembert. I don't think that swap puts us over the top and they both are horribly overpaid. If we could somehow get a young player with some value like Kevin Martin then of course do it, but I think those sorts of deals are mostly pipe dreams.

KG probably won't be trade able until he is expiring in 2 years, and with him we should probably take the same approach we would take with Ray.

With Pierce I would probably be fine with offering him a 5-8M a year for a few more years so he can retire a Celtic.

So from now on we should look to take on only contracts that are good values. Though we don't want to do any more "win now" type of moves that compromise our flexibility we probably also shouldn't blow everything up either because there still is a chance we get lucky and surprise people.

[armageddon]

If they were to just let this team die, who would be watching. I'd much rather watch a bunch of young guys working hard to improve and possibly overachieve than a team of injured slow YMCA league guys winning just enough to make the playoffs but lose in the first round.
Danny did his job. He assembled the big 3 and won a title. Now its time to reconstruct. I think the fans would accept this.

[MyInsatiableOne]

If they were to just let this team die, who would be watching. I'd much rather watch a bunch of young guys working hard to improve and possibly overachieve than a team of injured slow YMCA league guys winning just enough to make the playoffs but lose in the first round.
Danny did his job. He assembled the big 3 and won a title. Now its time to reconstruct. I think the fans would accept this.

So for those of us who are old enough to remember, I should be thankful I got to see the 2002-2007 teams vs the 1988-1993 teams, right? Trust me, I lived through both eras and I'll take not-quite playoff runs from the end of the original Big Three's prime over the dreck of this past decade (apart from #17) any day...

[armageddon]

If they were to just let this team die, who would be watching. I'd much rather watch a bunch of young guys working hard to improve and possibly overachieve than a team of injured slow YMCA league guys winning just enough to make the playoffs but lose in the first round.
Danny did his job. He assembled the big 3 and won a title. Now its time to reconstruct. I think the fans would accept this.

So for those of us who are old enough to remember, I should be thankful I got to see the 2002-2007 teams vs the 1988-1993 teams, right? Trust me, I lived through both eras and I'll take not-quite playoff runs from the end of the original Big Three's prime over the dreck of this past decade (apart from #17) any day...

Not the same, the old Bird, McHale, Parish were way better than this old 3. They were also more watchable because we saw them through their whole careers (most of for Parish), we just haven't had the same emotional commitment with this newer big 3. For me it's watching sports is mostly for its entertainment value, it's not all a matter of winning it all. Of course, winning it all is very entertaining.

fyi....graduated from NU in '81, so I was there watching with you.

[MyInsatiableOne]

^just so you know, wasn't attacking you And I was just a schoolkid in the 1980s, but still, I still think a 1st or 2nd round playoff exit beats the 20 years we spent in the NBA wilderness without even a chance...

[armageddon]

^just so you know, wasn't attacking you And I was just a schoolkid in the 1980s, but still, I still think a 1st or 2nd round playoff exit beats the 20 years we spent in the NBA wilderness without even a chance...

I agree and no problem.

[sully00]

If they were to just let this team die, who would be watching. I'd much rather watch a bunch of young guys working hard to improve and possibly overachieve than a team of injured slow YMCA league guys winning just enough to make the playoffs but lose in the first round.
Danny did his job. He assembled the big 3 and won a title. Now its time to reconstruct. I think the fans would accept this.

So for those of us who are old enough to remember, I should be thankful I got to see the 2002-2007 teams vs the 1988-1993 teams, right? Trust me, I lived through both eras and I'll take not-quite playoff runs from the end of the original Big Three's prime over the dreck of this past decade (apart from #17) any day...

Not the same, the old Bird, McHale, Parish were way better than this old 3. They were also more watchable because we saw them through their whole careers (most of for Parish), we just haven't had the same emotional commitment with this newer big 3. For me it's watching sports is mostly for its entertainment value, it's not all a matter of winning it all. Of course, winning it all is very entertaining.

fyi....graduated from NU in '81, so I was there watching with you.

Hindsight is 20/20 but c'mon. The Celts of the 80's may have been better but lets assume we are looking at the 87-88 Celts and the current C's both two years removed from a title and facing mortality, no way would you say that that squad is better than this squad. Hell brass tacks and I can't find a kind way to say it but... **** I won't but this team even with its issues is in much better shape than that team and there are no Pistons or Bulls out there.

[MyInsatiableOne]

^good point. But that group had been through almost a decade of BRUTAL playoff battles with the Sixers, Bucks, and Pistons by then...this current team has only had a couple years of playoff battling...don't think for a minute that didn't wear down the 1980s Celtics faster than it should have. Especially because the Lakers out West basically coasted to the Finals every year (and only missed out twice due to complacency and laziness)

[armageddon]

That late 80's team had a plan (through a little luck) for continued geatness but through some horrible back luck it just didn't happen. Len Bias '86.

They also made several big and contraveral trades that had mixed results. Max for Walton, Ainge for Kleine and Pinkney, etc. They didn't just ride the BPM into the sunset.

Don't know exactly where I'm going with this......

[MyInsatiableOne]

That late 80's team had a plan (through a little luck) for continued geatness but through some horrible back luck it just didn't happen. Len Bias '86.

They also made several big and contraveral trades that had mixed results. Max for Walton, Ainge for Kleine and Pinkney, etc. They didn't just ride the BPM into the sunset.

Don't know exactly where I'm going with this......

^THAT was a horrendous trade, one I hated the minute I heard about it back in 1988, and one I still hate now. Pinckney was decent but Kleine was hands down one of the worst MF'ing NBA "players" I've ever seen...horrid

[armageddon]

And.....knowing that DA was traded from a championship quality team, is there any doubt that he wouldn't trade any player if it improved the team.

[MyInsatiableOne]

Good point...