Can Ray's twilights years be like Reggie Miller's?

[MyInsatiableOne]

[ryaningf]

Though Tony Allen is screwing that up again by picking the perfect 15-20 game stretch to live up to his ability and make everyone realize how sweet having an instant defense 6th man can be. Of course about 11 mins after the trade deadline he will either shred a knee or kill someone.

Agreed. As good as he's looked, I'm not falling for it, I'd ship him out in an instant if we had a decent replacement coming.

As much as his slashing and defense against combo guards are exactly what we need - he also compounds our worst problems which are bricking jump shots, foolish turnovers, and lack of size at the 2/3. As much as he offers he also taketh away. To me, he finally and irrevocably wore out his welcome in the Chicago series, and now he's just hanging around since we don't have better options.

I understand why he hasn't earned everyone's trust back, but I think you're discounting the personal growth he's shown in the last year. Everybody develops at their own pace, and I think TA's finally grow up and into a professional, somebody who takes care of his body, doesn't party, and studies game tape. Add that to his physical skills (which even after multiple surgeries are still pretty good), and you have a pretty good and versatile weapon on a very reasonable contract. I know he hasn't shown good, solid play in the playoffs, but I also think we're talking about a completely different TA this year--and I expect him to have a very good playoff run this season (assuming good health--knock on wood).

As for Ray Allen, I don't think he's starter material--on this team--anymore. If this were a different team, if this were say the Hawks, with all their athleticism, I think Ray would be starter quality, as there would be enough athleticism around to offset his aging legs. But on a team with little athleticism and aging superstars at small forward and power forward, I don't think you can afford to start Ray; he just brings our net atleticism to such a low # that we're at a huge disadvantage against athletic teams.

If we don't trade him, I'd love to bring him back as our 6th man at about 8-9 million dollars per, with plans to start TA or Daniels next season. I think he can be a solid bench scorer for at least 3 more seasons.

[floyd]

Reggie Miller is so freakin' over-rated. Was he clutch - sure. Was he dominant - no. Him and Malone get way too much credit for longevity. That's great you stayed healthy and played at a high level your whole career but it doesn't make you a better player at your peak.

[MyInsatiableOne]

ryaningf, how has TA shown maturity when he had credible death threats against him last year in Chicago due to personal issues? The guy does this all the time, he'll have a killer stretch (see November-December 2008) where he is great and we all fall for it, and then he either reverts back to his usual idiotic/useless play or gets hurt. I hope we can ship his ass out of town before the deadline based on his improved play right now...

[sully00]

Overall I just don't see a way to trade Ray Allen. I think that Ray is a much better basketball player than Reggie ever was, essentially Ray in Boston is what Reggie was his whole career 18/3/3 guy. I think that the contract situation and how it impacts his family is on Ray's mind and is affecting his shooting, and until that trade deadline comes it is going to be on his mind.

Wow. Just wow. Reggie Miller was the single most efficient #1 option EVER, in the history of the NBA. The guy gets no respect for what he was, which was one of the most valuable scorers in the league during his prime. No, he didn't put up the pure volume stats, but he easily could have at the cost of some of his efficiency. His teams were better for it, and if the guy ever had a legitimate supporting cast he'd of won a ring along the way.

Ray Allen of the last two years was what Reggie was at his absolute worst; a very efficient third option. Reggie Miller has NEVER been as mediocre as Ray Allen has been this year.

I am not trying to put Reggie down as much relate what we are talking about, words mean different things to different people so maybe you can clear some of that up. Number one option tends to lead the team in scoring correct? When Reggie was the number 2 option in the offense the Pacers were at their best, much like Ray is in Boston. There were even points when because of the efficiency your talking about Reggie actually would lead the Pacers in scoring while not being the focus or number one option in the offense, this is when his impact was at its best.

The point remains the same Reggie never had Ray's prime, he never apporoached 25/5/5 like Ray was in his prime nor does he approach Ray's production for his career of 20/4/5, they are different players. Beyond that the year isn't over Reggie had years of shooting similiar to what Ray is now especially late in his career and never actually shot the ball as well as Ray did last season. Sure Reggie is a percentage point or two higher in Point Per Shot, eFG%, and TS% but you will take the overall production over the difference.

We are killing Ray for shooting 34% from 3 before the All Star break, he shoots 40% after the break like he has the last 2 years we won't even remember. He is shooting 52% from inside the arc and still think most of this is about focus and not physical, if he is still here after the deadline he will shoot the 3 and his FT's better.

In the end how many of the guys we are talking about replacing Ray with are shooting the ball better than Ray is at his worst?

[ryaningf]

ryaningf, how has TA shown maturity when he had credible death threats against him last year in Chicago due to personal issues? The guy does this all the time, he'll have a killer stretch (see November-December 2008) where he is great and we all fall for it, and then he either reverts back to his usual idiotic/useless play or gets hurt. I hope we can ship his ass out of town before the deadline based on his improved play right now...

You obviously haven't been reading the news this season, or listening to his quotes to the press. He's come into his own. The past is the past; this is TA's time.

Injuries have always been his downfall, for sure. If he can stay healthy, I expect he'll be an important player off the bench.

Last time I checked, if somebody else threatens your life, that's a character flaw of that other person, right?

[MyInsatiableOne]

^

ryaningf, how has TA shown maturity when he had credible death threats against him last year in Chicago due to personal issues? The guy does this all the time, he'll have a killer stretch (see November-December 2008) where he is great and we all fall for it, and then he either reverts back to his usual idiotic/useless play or gets hurt. I hope we can ship his ass out of town before the deadline based on his improved play right now...

You obviously haven't been reading the news this season, or listening to his quotes to the press. He's come into his own. The past is the past; this is TA's time.

Injuries have always been his downfall, for sure. If he can stay healthy, I expect he'll be an important player off the bench.

Last time I checked, if somebody else threatens your life, that's a character flaw of that other person, right?

No, because the reason they were after TA had something to do with TA screwing them out of some money or something like that...it was brought on by his own stupidity.

And I'm not buying that he all of a sudden matured and grew up...like I said, he's fooled us all too many times for me to fall for it again.

[ryaningf]

^

ryaningf, how has TA shown maturity when he had credible death threats against him last year in Chicago due to personal issues? The guy does this all the time, he'll have a killer stretch (see November-December 2008) where he is great and we all fall for it, and then he either reverts back to his usual idiotic/useless play or gets hurt. I hope we can ship his ass out of town before the deadline based on his improved play right now...

You obviously haven't been reading the news this season, or listening to his quotes to the press. He's come into his own. The past is the past; this is TA's time.

Injuries have always been his downfall, for sure. If he can stay healthy, I expect he'll be an important player off the bench.

Last time I checked, if somebody else threatens your life, that's a character flaw of that other person, right?

No, because the reason they were after TA had something to do with TA screwing them out of some money or something like that...it was brought on by his own stupidity.

Oh, so you believe the story of the guy who goes around threatening people's lives? That might be your perogative, but it gives you ZERO credibility. You can't just go around accepting things simply because they fit into what you already believed previously. Consider the source.

[MyInsatiableOne]

I'm only remembering what both TA, the team, and TA's family said last year during the whole Chicago incident...

[eloper]

Overall I just don't see a way to trade Ray Allen. I think that Ray is a much better basketball player than Reggie ever was, essentially Ray in Boston is what Reggie was his whole career 18/3/3 guy. I think that the contract situation and how it impacts his family is on Ray's mind and is affecting his shooting, and until that trade deadline comes it is going to be on his mind.

Wow. Just wow. Reggie Miller was the single most efficient #1 option EVER, in the history of the NBA. The guy gets no respect for what he was, which was one of the most valuable scorers in the league during his prime. No, he didn't put up the pure volume stats, but he easily could have at the cost of some of his efficiency. His teams were better for it, and if the guy ever had a legitimate supporting cast he'd of won a ring along the way.

Ray Allen of the last two years was what Reggie was at his absolute worst; a very efficient third option. Reggie Miller has NEVER been as mediocre as Ray Allen has been this year.

I am not trying to put Reggie down as much relate what we are talking about, words mean different things to different people so maybe you can clear some of that up. Number one option tends to lead the team in scoring correct? When Reggie was the number 2 option in the offense the Pacers were at their best, much like Ray is in Boston. There were even points when because of the efficiency your talking about Reggie actually would lead the Pacers in scoring while not being the focus or number one option in the offense, this is when his impact was at its best.

The point remains the same Reggie never had Ray's prime, he never apporoached 25/5/5 like Ray was in his prime nor does he approach Ray's production for his career of 20/4/5, they are different players. Beyond that the year isn't over Reggie had years of shooting similiar to what Ray is now especially late in his career and never actually shot the ball as well as Ray did last season. Sure Reggie is a percentage point or two higher in Point Per Shot, eFG%, and TS% but you will take the overall production over the difference.

We are killing Ray for shooting 34% from 3 before the All Star break, he shoots 40% after the break like he has the last 2 years we won't even remember. He is shooting 52% from inside the arc and still think most of this is about focus and not physical, if he is still here after the deadline he will shoot the 3 and his FT's better.

In the end how many of the guys we are talking about replacing Ray with are shooting the ball better than Ray is at his worst?

I understand, and I'm not in the camp that thinks Ray Allen needs to be moved at all costs (I for one think he'll heat up and be the valuable shooter he should be), just that Reggie Miller's efficiency often gets entirely overlooked and its always bothered me. Some of the oRtgs put up by Reggie are just ridiculous, as a first option or second option, and what Ray's doing this year isn't anywhere close to what Reggie was even in his later years.

People undervalue what a high efficiency scorer does for an offense, and when Ray is on thats what he provides. Unfortunately he's been dreadfully mediocre this year, but replacing him with someone who's going to provide lower efficiency (which is still most of the guys we're talking about) isn't going to help much, unless you believe we desperately need another person who can dominate the ball (personally I'm fine with the ball being in Rondo or Pierce's hands the entire game).

[GuyClinch]

Reggie Lewis was better then Reggie Miller in his prime. Reggie was a one trick pony - it was a great trick though and he managed to do it longer. But I would rather have an old Reggie Miller then an old Ray Allen at this point though.

Ray Allen fancies himself some kind of complete baller and isn't never the player that Miller was coming off of screens. Reggie just decided this is what I am going to do - and I am going to do it better then anyone else.

Ray Allen was really oversold coming here - I remember how he was supposed to be this great passer and ball handler. he isn't event he passer/ball handler then Daniels is.