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Outsiders on the Celtics

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Re: Outsiders on the Celtics 

Post#41 » by MagicBagley18 » Thu May 21, 2020 11:12 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
This has always been one of our few outs towards a ring regardless of what we did with Jaylen. Re-signing Jaylen has zero negative impact towards our chase for an MVP level talent.

If one of the MVP level players were to want to come here as a FA in 2021, we’d let Hayward walk and trade Brown to a team with cap space.

If an MVP level player became available [guessing James Harden], a 23 year old 20-6-2 59% TS two-way is an attractive asset and a good salary filler.

You keep repeating that its ‘the final nail in the coffin’ but theres just zero evidence it detrimentally impacted us. I’d guess he was re-signed to be traded, probably with Smart. Jaylen is a confidence player, and the externalities of giving him the contract he was always going to get now as opposed to waiting meant he wouldnt press as hard and he’d raise his trade value in the interim.


I just like the fact that you’re open and or acknowledge that brown was most likely re-signed to be traded. Saying that around here to some is treated like blasphemy. if Jaylen plays so well that trading him looks foolish that’s a win for the Celtics and us as fans but make no mistakes about it he’s not untouchable and while no player truly is- Tatum is the untouchable one of the 2.

Again, not saying it happens or it’s likely but If turned jaylen brown into a beal or a beal level player via trade that’s a tremendous win for the Celtics.


But isnt that a separate than arguing that re-signing him was a poor decision [the tamer version of the final nail quote]? Ive argued from the start that when we trade Jaylen, I will take my victory lap on his contract.

My point is this— does Jaylen play better on an extension or without one? Which situation optimizes his trade value?

Guessing we trade Jaylen and Smart for Harden. Or Jaylen and Smart to Utah in a deal for Mitchell [Tatum seems to have a love affair with that dude].

Hard pass on Beal, FWIW. He’s broken. Plays no D and too established to flip the switch back on.


As I’ve said before I would have traded Jaylen in previous trades but I digress. On beal I’m not sure how he’s broken unless there’s an injury your privy to and I am not. he’s also in a **** situation and we’ve seen countless times guys come here or into a winning situation with a renewed interest on D- I disagree that he wouldn’t flip the switch on, the wizards blow and he knows they need him on offense. He wouldn’t have that pressure here or elsewhere.

Is he gonna be all world defense? No but more than serviceable. Furthermore on brown- what’s done is done but the realization is he’s way more of a trade chip than he his a foundational franchise building block and you me and about a handful of others realize that whereas the others truly believe he has all nba superstar potential.
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Re: Outsiders on the Celtics 

Post#42 » by reload141 » Thu May 21, 2020 11:57 pm

Captain_Caveman wrote:
LuckyLeprechaun wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
In the sense that we were forced to. But unless Tatum makes an MVP leap, that contract was the final nail in this rebuild's coffin.

Jaylen is ordinary and limited.


False, because even if we let Jaylen walk we weren't going to have cap flexibility. The scenario where we let Jaylen walk involved Hayward opting in and us still not having cap room to sign a big name. There was no scenario where we traded him on his rookie contract for any value this season after seeing how poor the trade market ended up being, so the only scenarios were no cap space and no Jaylen or no cap space and a Jaylen whose contract fits in nicely with just about any trade for a star. Far better trade options than the trades we were trying to come up with that involved Smart+half the team when some wanted AD.


I fully understand we got leveraged by circumstance into paying him that much.

FWIW, not that anyone could have predicted COVID, but a quizzical time for a victory lap. Cap is about to drop by 30% or more, and we had matching rights in Jaylen this summer. League will probably address that somehow, but as it turns out, dude was definitely not getting 4y/130m this summer.

Speaking of which, depending on how the league addresses the loss of revenue, we are in cap hell this summer.


This is key, surely they address is and they won't tax teams for being over etc... I highly doubt they will lower the cap and keep the luxury tax the way it is.
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Re: Outsiders on the Celtics 

Post#43 » by GoCeltics123 » Fri May 22, 2020 12:01 am

Captain_Caveman wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
In the sense that we were forced to. But unless Tatum makes an MVP leap, that contract was the final nail in this rebuild's coffin.

Jaylen is ordinary and limited.


This has always been one of our few outs towards a ring regardless of what we did with Jaylen. Re-signing Jaylen has zero negative impact towards our chase for an MVP level talent.

If one of the MVP level players were to want to come here as a FA in 2021, we’d let Hayward walk and trade Brown to a team with cap space.

If an MVP level player became available [guessing James Harden], a 23 year old 20-6-2 59% TS two-way is an attractive asset and a good salary filler.

You keep repeating that its ‘the final nail in the coffin’ but theres just zero evidence it detrimentally impacted us. I’d guess he was re-signed to be traded, probably with Smart. Jaylen is a confidence player, and the externalities of giving him the contract he was always going to get now as opposed to waiting meant he wouldnt press as hard and he’d raise his trade value in the interim.


And what exactly would Jaylen have gotten this summer?

Like I said, weird time for a victory lap.

Even with a cap drop, Hawks probably would've maxed him.

You underestimate how much Travis Schlenk wants to spend (even with a drop they're going to have $40+ mil in cap space), and he'd gladly do it for a Jaylen Brown over a Davis Bertans
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Re: Outsiders on the Celtics 

Post#44 » by Captain_Caveman » Fri May 22, 2020 12:08 am

GoCeltics123 wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
This has always been one of our few outs towards a ring regardless of what we did with Jaylen. Re-signing Jaylen has zero negative impact towards our chase for an MVP level talent.

If one of the MVP level players were to want to come here as a FA in 2021, we’d let Hayward walk and trade Brown to a team with cap space.

If an MVP level player became available [guessing James Harden], a 23 year old 20-6-2 59% TS two-way is an attractive asset and a good salary filler.

You keep repeating that its ‘the final nail in the coffin’ but theres just zero evidence it detrimentally impacted us. I’d guess he was re-signed to be traded, probably with Smart. Jaylen is a confidence player, and the externalities of giving him the contract he was always going to get now as opposed to waiting meant he wouldnt press as hard and he’d raise his trade value in the interim.


And what exactly would Jaylen have gotten this summer?

Like I said, weird time for a victory lap.

Even with a cap drop, Hawks probably would've maxed him.

You underestimate how much Travis Schlenk wants to spend (even with a drop they're going to have $40+ mil in cap space), and he'd gladly do it for a Jaylen Brown over a Davis Bertans


My point is what even is the max this summer?
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Re: Outsiders on the Celtics 

Post#45 » by SmartWentCrazy » Fri May 22, 2020 12:13 am

MagicBagley18 wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:
I just like the fact that you’re open and or acknowledge that brown was most likely re-signed to be traded. Saying that around here to some is treated like blasphemy. if Jaylen plays so well that trading him looks foolish that’s a win for the Celtics and us as fans but make no mistakes about it he’s not untouchable and while no player truly is- Tatum is the untouchable one of the 2.

Again, not saying it happens or it’s likely but If turned jaylen brown into a beal or a beal level player via trade that’s a tremendous win for the Celtics.


But isnt that a separate than arguing that re-signing him was a poor decision [the tamer version of the final nail quote]? Ive argued from the start that when we trade Jaylen, I will take my victory lap on his contract.

My point is this— does Jaylen play better on an extension or without one? Which situation optimizes his trade value?

Guessing we trade Jaylen and Smart for Harden. Or Jaylen and Smart to Utah in a deal for Mitchell [Tatum seems to have a love affair with that dude].

Hard pass on Beal, FWIW. He’s broken. Plays no D and too established to flip the switch back on.


As I’ve said before I would have traded Jaylen in previous trades but I digress. On beal I’m not sure how he’s broken unless there’s an injury your privy to and I am not. he’s also in a **** situation and we’ve seen countless times guys come here or into a winning situation with a renewed interest on D- I disagree that he wouldn’t flip the switch on, the wizards blow and he knows they need him on offense. He wouldn’t have that pressure here or elsewhere.

Is he gonna be all world defense? No but more than serviceable. Furthermore on brown- what’s done is done but the realization is he’s way more of a trade chip than he his a foundational franchise building block and you me and about a handful of others realize that whereas the others truly believe he has all nba superstar potential.


He hasnt been serviceable on D since the 16 playoffs. He’s slowly gotten worse and worse until this year where he was Trae Young/IT level bad. It’ll take a few seasons to reverse this decline. He’s a volume scorer who chases stats and is not a winning player.

Slightly OT, but Jaylen is in amazing shape right now [kudos to him] and I expect him to kill it when ball resumes and others arent close to being in shape. It’ll solely be a function of the time off but he will look real nice. People will resist wanting to trade him even more, but it’ll significantly up his trade value.

I’m fairly confident that were going to package Brown and Smart for another young star this summer. Kinda think that theres a real sneaky chance Mitchell becomes available and that we can convince Utah to deal with us. Mitchell is a slouch on D, but its more structural — he has an absurd offensive burden and in effect transfers responsibilities with Gobert. Confident he’d improve efficiency and defense on our team. Pipe dream, yes, but still think its possible.
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Re: Outsiders on the Celtics 

Post#46 » by SmartWentCrazy » Fri May 22, 2020 12:15 am

Captain_Caveman wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:
I just like the fact that you’re open and or acknowledge that brown was most likely re-signed to be traded. Saying that around here to some is treated like blasphemy. if Jaylen plays so well that trading him looks foolish that’s a win for the Celtics and us as fans but make no mistakes about it he’s not untouchable and while no player truly is- Tatum is the untouchable one of the 2.

Again, not saying it happens or it’s likely but If turned jaylen brown into a beal or a beal level player via trade that’s a tremendous win for the Celtics.


But isnt that a separate than arguing that re-signing him was a poor decision [the tamer version of the final nail quote]? Ive argued from the start that when we trade Jaylen, I will take my victory lap on his contract.

My point is this— does Jaylen play better on an extension or without one? Which situation optimizes his trade value?

Guessing we trade Jaylen and Smart for Harden. Or Jaylen and Smart to Utah in a deal for Mitchell [Tatum seems to have a love affair with that dude].

Hard pass on Beal, FWIW. He’s broken. Plays no D and too established to flip the switch back on.


FWIW, never said we shouldn't have extended him, even on that deal.

I just bemoaned being forced to overpay for him. Which we did.


Eh, the nail in the coffin bit suggests elsewise, but sounds like this is just semantics and were not too far off opinion wise.
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Re: Outsiders on the Celtics 

Post#47 » by MagicBagley18 » Fri May 22, 2020 12:38 am

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
But isnt that a separate than arguing that re-signing him was a poor decision [the tamer version of the final nail quote]? Ive argued from the start that when we trade Jaylen, I will take my victory lap on his contract.

My point is this— does Jaylen play better on an extension or without one? Which situation optimizes his trade value?

Guessing we trade Jaylen and Smart for Harden. Or Jaylen and Smart to Utah in a deal for Mitchell [Tatum seems to have a love affair with that dude].

Hard pass on Beal, FWIW. He’s broken. Plays no D and too established to flip the switch back on.


As I’ve said before I would have traded Jaylen in previous trades but I digress. On beal I’m not sure how he’s broken unless there’s an injury your privy to and I am not. he’s also in a **** situation and we’ve seen countless times guys come here or into a winning situation with a renewed interest on D- I disagree that he wouldn’t flip the switch on, the wizards blow and he knows they need him on offense. He wouldn’t have that pressure here or elsewhere.

Is he gonna be all world defense? No but more than serviceable. Furthermore on brown- what’s done is done but the realization is he’s way more of a trade chip than he his a foundational franchise building block and you me and about a handful of others realize that whereas the others truly believe he has all nba superstar potential.


He hasnt been serviceable on D since the 16 playoffs. He’s slowly gotten worse and worse until this year where he was Trae Young/IT level bad. It’ll take a few seasons to reverse this decline. He’s a volume scorer who chases stats and is not a winning player.

Slightly OT, but Jaylen is in amazing shape right now [kudos to him] and I expect him to kill it when ball resumes and others arent close to being in shape. It’ll solely be a function of the time off but he will look real nice. People will resist wanting to trade him even more, but it’ll significantly up his trade value.

I’m fairly confident that were going to package Brown and Smart for another young star this summer. Kinda think that theres a real sneaky chance Mitchell becomes available and that we can convince Utah to deal with us. Mitchell is a slouch on D, but its more structural — he has an absurd offensive burden and in effect transfers responsibilities with Gobert. Confident he’d improve efficiency and defense on our team. Pipe dream, yes, but still think its possible.


I just think in a situation playing for something matters where he isn’t the bulk of the load on offense he would find “renewed” focus on d. We can agree to disagree. I do not like the fit of Mitchell and Tatum together, Mitchell needs the ball much like kyrie did or so it appears I’d have to do a deeper dive into stats but on the surface I’m not sure I like the fit nor do I think the jazz think ab trading him at all.

I do agree with could see some movement this summer but not Mitchell- he’s going nowhere IMO. So many variables with the salary cap and other wise issues due to covid.
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Re: Outsiders on the Celtics 

Post#48 » by SmartWentCrazy » Fri May 22, 2020 12:57 am

MagicBagley18 wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:
As I’ve said before I would have traded Jaylen in previous trades but I digress. On beal I’m not sure how he’s broken unless there’s an injury your privy to and I am not. he’s also in a **** situation and we’ve seen countless times guys come here or into a winning situation with a renewed interest on D- I disagree that he wouldn’t flip the switch on, the wizards blow and he knows they need him on offense. He wouldn’t have that pressure here or elsewhere.

Is he gonna be all world defense? No but more than serviceable. Furthermore on brown- what’s done is done but the realization is he’s way more of a trade chip than he his a foundational franchise building block and you me and about a handful of others realize that whereas the others truly believe he has all nba superstar potential.


He hasnt been serviceable on D since the 16 playoffs. He’s slowly gotten worse and worse until this year where he was Trae Young/IT level bad. It’ll take a few seasons to reverse this decline. He’s a volume scorer who chases stats and is not a winning player.

Slightly OT, but Jaylen is in amazing shape right now [kudos to him] and I expect him to kill it when ball resumes and others arent close to being in shape. It’ll solely be a function of the time off but he will look real nice. People will resist wanting to trade him even more, but it’ll significantly up his trade value.

I’m fairly confident that were going to package Brown and Smart for another young star this summer. Kinda think that theres a real sneaky chance Mitchell becomes available and that we can convince Utah to deal with us. Mitchell is a slouch on D, but its more structural — he has an absurd offensive burden and in effect transfers responsibilities with Gobert. Confident he’d improve efficiency and defense on our team. Pipe dream, yes, but still think its possible.


I just think in a situation playing for something matters where he isn’t the bulk of the load on offense he would find “renewed” focus on d. We can agree to disagree. I do not like the fit of Mitchell and Tatum together, Mitchell needs the ball much like kyrie did or so it appears I’d have to do a deeper dive into stats but on the surface I’m not sure I like the fit nor do I think the jazz think ab trading him at all.

I do agree with could see some movement this summer but not Mitchell- he’s going nowhere IMO. So many variables with the salary cap and other wise issues due to covid.


Thats just it though— he didnt need to carry them offensively. They had great spacing and many other capable offensive weapons. He just chose not to play defense.

It was pretty telling that the coaches left him off the all-star roster, IMO. Everyone knows what he’s doing— just chasing stats. But ill agree to disagree.

Mitchell very likely will not be traded, but he is a good fit with Tatum. Dude wouldnt chuck if he had other capable teammates and he has great respect for both Kemba and Tatum. He’d also greatly improve his efficiency when if he wasnt the sole focus of the defense every play. But we can agree to disagree here as well.
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Re: Outsiders on the Celtics 

Post#49 » by bucknersrevenge » Fri May 22, 2020 1:04 am

MagicBagley18 wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:
I just like the fact that you’re open and or acknowledge that brown was most likely re-signed to be traded. Saying that around here to some is treated like blasphemy. if Jaylen plays so well that trading him looks foolish that’s a win for the Celtics and us as fans but make no mistakes about it he’s not untouchable and while no player truly is- Tatum is the untouchable one of the 2.

Again, not saying it happens or it’s likely but If turned jaylen brown into a beal or a beal level player via trade that’s a tremendous win for the Celtics.


But isnt that a separate than arguing that re-signing him was a poor decision [the tamer version of the final nail quote]? Ive argued from the start that when we trade Jaylen, I will take my victory lap on his contract.

My point is this— does Jaylen play better on an extension or without one? Which situation optimizes his trade value?

Guessing we trade Jaylen and Smart for Harden. Or Jaylen and Smart to Utah in a deal for Mitchell [Tatum seems to have a love affair with that dude].

Hard pass on Beal, FWIW. He’s broken. Plays no D and too established to flip the switch back on.


As I’ve said before I would have traded Jaylen in previous trades but I digress. On beal I’m not sure how he’s broken unless there’s an injury your privy to and I am not. he’s also in a **** situation and we’ve seen countless times guys come here or into a winning situation with a renewed interest on D- I disagree that he wouldn’t flip the switch on, the wizards blow and he knows they need him on offense. He wouldn’t have that pressure here or elsewhere.

Is he gonna be all world defense? No but more than serviceable. Furthermore on brown- what’s done is done but the realization is he’s way more of a trade chip than he his a foundational franchise building block and you me and about a handful of others realize that whereas the others truly believe he has all nba superstar potential.


Actually I'm glad he signed for what he did and not a lower amount. He fills that high salary slot needed to make bigger deals for other high salaried players. As he reaches his prime on that deal, either he plays well enough to help support us winning a title or we cash him in as the asset he is. Either way, it works for Danny.
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Re: Outsiders on the Celtics 

Post#50 » by SmartWentCrazy » Sat May 23, 2020 5:50 pm

MagicBagley18 wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:
As I’ve said before I would have traded Jaylen in previous trades but I digress. On beal I’m not sure how he’s broken unless there’s an injury your privy to and I am not. he’s also in a **** situation and we’ve seen countless times guys come here or into a winning situation with a renewed interest on D- I disagree that he wouldn’t flip the switch on, the wizards blow and he knows they need him on offense. He wouldn’t have that pressure here or elsewhere.

Is he gonna be all world defense? No but more than serviceable. Furthermore on brown- what’s done is done but the realization is he’s way more of a trade chip than he his a foundational franchise building block and you me and about a handful of others realize that whereas the others truly believe he has all nba superstar potential.


He hasnt been serviceable on D since the 16 playoffs. He’s slowly gotten worse and worse until this year where he was Trae Young/IT level bad. It’ll take a few seasons to reverse this decline. He’s a volume scorer who chases stats and is not a winning player.

Slightly OT, but Jaylen is in amazing shape right now [kudos to him] and I expect him to kill it when ball resumes and others arent close to being in shape. It’ll solely be a function of the time off but he will look real nice. People will resist wanting to trade him even more, but it’ll significantly up his trade value.

I’m fairly confident that were going to package Brown and Smart for another young star this summer. Kinda think that theres a real sneaky chance Mitchell becomes available and that we can convince Utah to deal with us. Mitchell is a slouch on D, but its more structural — he has an absurd offensive burden and in effect transfers responsibilities with Gobert. Confident he’d improve efficiency and defense on our team. Pipe dream, yes, but still think its possible.


I just think in a situation playing for something matters where he isn’t the bulk of the load on offense he would find “renewed” focus on d. We can agree to disagree. I do not like the fit of Mitchell and Tatum together, Mitchell needs the ball much like kyrie did or so it appears I’d have to do a deeper dive into stats but on the surface I’m not sure I like the fit nor do I think the jazz think ab trading him at all.

I do agree with could see some movement this summer but not Mitchell- he’s going nowhere IMO. So many variables with the salary cap and other wise issues due to covid.


More for lulz than an actual point— Tatum and Mitchell keep heaping love at each other on social media:

Read on Twitter
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Re: Outsiders on the Celtics 

Post#51 » by themoneyteam2 » Sat May 23, 2020 6:09 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
This has always been one of our few outs towards a ring regardless of what we did with Jaylen. Re-signing Jaylen has zero negative impact towards our chase for an MVP level talent.

If one of the MVP level players were to want to come here as a FA in 2021, we’d let Hayward walk and trade Brown to a team with cap space.

If an MVP level player became available [guessing James Harden], a 23 year old 20-6-2 59% TS two-way is an attractive asset and a good salary filler.

You keep repeating that its ‘the final nail in the coffin’ but theres just zero evidence it detrimentally impacted us. I’d guess he was re-signed to be traded, probably with Smart. Jaylen is a confidence player, and the externalities of giving him the contract he was always going to get now as opposed to waiting meant he wouldnt press as hard and he’d raise his trade value in the interim.


I just like the fact that you’re open and or acknowledge that brown was most likely re-signed to be traded. Saying that around here to some is treated like blasphemy. if Jaylen plays so well that trading him looks foolish that’s a win for the Celtics and us as fans but make no mistakes about it he’s not untouchable and while no player truly is- Tatum is the untouchable one of the 2.

Again, not saying it happens or it’s likely but If turned jaylen brown into a beal or a beal level player via trade that’s a tremendous win for the Celtics.


But isnt that a separate than arguing that re-signing him was a poor decision [the tamer version of the final nail quote]? Ive argued from the start that when we trade Jaylen, I will take my victory lap on his contract.

My point is this— does Jaylen play better on an extension or without one? Which situation optimizes his trade value?

Guessing we trade Jaylen and Smart for Harden. Or Jaylen and Smart to Utah in a deal for Mitchell [Tatum seems to have a love affair with that dude].

Hard pass on Beal, FWIW. He’s broken. Plays no D and too established to flip the switch back on.


Smart and Brown for Mitchell seems like a loss for Boston, no?
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Re: Outsiders on the Celtics 

Post#52 » by Parliament10 » Sat May 23, 2020 7:21 pm

themoneyteam2 wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:
I just like the fact that you’re open and or acknowledge that brown was most likely re-signed to be traded. Saying that around here to some is treated like blasphemy. if Jaylen plays so well that trading him looks foolish that’s a win for the Celtics and us as fans but make no mistakes about it he’s not untouchable and while no player truly is- Tatum is the untouchable one of the 2.

Again, not saying it happens or it’s likely but If turned jaylen brown into a beal or a beal level player via trade that’s a tremendous win for the Celtics.


But isnt that a separate than arguing that re-signing him was a poor decision [the tamer version of the final nail quote]? Ive argued from the start that when we trade Jaylen, I will take my victory lap on his contract.

My point is this— does Jaylen play better on an extension or without one? Which situation optimizes his trade value?

Guessing we trade Jaylen and Smart for Harden. Or Jaylen and Smart to Utah in a deal for Mitchell [Tatum seems to have a love affair with that dude].


Hard pass on Beal, FWIW. He’s broken. Plays no D and too established to flip the switch back on.


Smart and Brown for Mitchell seems like a loss for Boston, no?

Yeah. Smart and Brown, for most of the league, is a loss for the Celtics. IMO
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Re: Outsiders on the Celtics 

Post#53 » by SmartWentCrazy » Sat May 23, 2020 7:36 pm

themoneyteam2 wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:
I just like the fact that you’re open and or acknowledge that brown was most likely re-signed to be traded. Saying that around here to some is treated like blasphemy. if Jaylen plays so well that trading him looks foolish that’s a win for the Celtics and us as fans but make no mistakes about it he’s not untouchable and while no player truly is- Tatum is the untouchable one of the 2.

Again, not saying it happens or it’s likely but If turned jaylen brown into a beal or a beal level player via trade that’s a tremendous win for the Celtics.


But isnt that a separate than arguing that re-signing him was a poor decision [the tamer version of the final nail quote]? Ive argued from the start that when we trade Jaylen, I will take my victory lap on his contract.

My point is this— does Jaylen play better on an extension or without one? Which situation optimizes his trade value?

Guessing we trade Jaylen and Smart for Harden. Or Jaylen and Smart to Utah in a deal for Mitchell [Tatum seems to have a love affair with that dude].

Hard pass on Beal, FWIW. He’s broken. Plays no D and too established to flip the switch back on.


Smart and Brown for Mitchell seems like a loss for Boston, no?


Are you paying 1.25 for a dollar bill? Yes. But you can only play 5 guys and talent wins out at the end of the day.

The most valuable skill in the league is elite shot creation. Mitchell has that potential. He [and Tatum] would both improve their efficiencies immensely if they played with each other. Im also optimistic that the reduced offensive stress would cause his defensive effort to increase.

Trading an all-star and a solid starter for an all-nba caliber guy is a move I make every day.
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Re: Outsiders on the Celtics 

Post#54 » by big-shot-ROB » Sat May 23, 2020 8:05 pm

Mitchell is not All-NBA for god's sake
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Re: Outsiders on the Celtics 

Post#55 » by big-shot-ROB » Sat May 23, 2020 8:08 pm

My problem with the whole Jaylen will get traded thing is not that I'm lying to myself thinking we will not trade him. Is the fact that you all have basically given up on him to the extent that him getting better is only a way to trade him for higher value.

There's no future in your minds where he flourishes in green.

Sure, I'd trade him for Doncic, Zion, Morant, Giannis, Harden, etc. But you can't just assume the only value he has now for the Celtics is as a tarde piece. Organizations shouldn't work like that.

And yeah, I'd have to think twice about it if Minny offered Towns straight up for him. But at this point you already know my take on bigs in general, specially the ones that are not plus contributors on the defensive end.
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Re: Outsiders on the Celtics 

Post#56 » by themoneyteam2 » Sat May 23, 2020 8:30 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
themoneyteam2 wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
But isnt that a separate than arguing that re-signing him was a poor decision [the tamer version of the final nail quote]? Ive argued from the start that when we trade Jaylen, I will take my victory lap on his contract.

My point is this— does Jaylen play better on an extension or without one? Which situation optimizes his trade value?

Guessing we trade Jaylen and Smart for Harden. Or Jaylen and Smart to Utah in a deal for Mitchell [Tatum seems to have a love affair with that dude].

Hard pass on Beal, FWIW. He’s broken. Plays no D and too established to flip the switch back on.


Smart and Brown for Mitchell seems like a loss for Boston, no?


Are you paying 1.25 for a dollar bill? Yes. But you can only play 5 guys and talent wins out at the end of the day.

The most valuable skill in the league is elite shot creation. Mitchell has that potential. He [and Tatum] would both improve their efficiencies immensely if they played with each other. Im also optimistic that the reduced offensive stress would cause his defensive effort to increase.

Trading an all-star and a solid starter for an all-nba caliber guy is a move I make every day.


That's fair and I see your reasoning. I would just personally rather have Tatum and Brown, two all star caliber wings, than Tatum and Mitchell at the 1 or 2. Just my preference for team building in having an elite wing duo.

I just think Brown is a lot more versatile than Mitchell is and having Kemba, Mitchell, Tatum doesn't provide the same versatility as they currently have. I think there is value in a guy like Brown who doesn't need all the touches to score 20 PPG efficiently.

I feel like the reason the Celtics are so good currently is because of their switchable guys and Smart coming in as 1st team all defense able to switch 1 through 4 basically and do all the dirty work.

Definitely see what your reasoning would be though. Mitchell is a stud and Ainge wanted to find a way to move into the first round to pick him. I just question if he would trade Smart and Brown away since that's very clearly a loss for Boston immediately.
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Re: Outsiders on the Celtics 

Post#57 » by MagicBagley18 » Sat May 23, 2020 8:49 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
He hasnt been serviceable on D since the 16 playoffs. He’s slowly gotten worse and worse until this year where he was Trae Young/IT level bad. It’ll take a few seasons to reverse this decline. He’s a volume scorer who chases stats and is not a winning player.

Slightly OT, but Jaylen is in amazing shape right now [kudos to him] and I expect him to kill it when ball resumes and others arent close to being in shape. It’ll solely be a function of the time off but he will look real nice. People will resist wanting to trade him even more, but it’ll significantly up his trade value.

I’m fairly confident that were going to package Brown and Smart for another young star this summer. Kinda think that theres a real sneaky chance Mitchell becomes available and that we can convince Utah to deal with us. Mitchell is a slouch on D, but its more structural — he has an absurd offensive burden and in effect transfers responsibilities with Gobert. Confident he’d improve efficiency and defense on our team. Pipe dream, yes, but still think its possible.


I just think in a situation playing for something matters where he isn’t the bulk of the load on offense he would find “renewed” focus on d. We can agree to disagree. I do not like the fit of Mitchell and Tatum together, Mitchell needs the ball much like kyrie did or so it appears I’d have to do a deeper dive into stats but on the surface I’m not sure I like the fit nor do I think the jazz think ab trading him at all.

I do agree with could see some movement this summer but not Mitchell- he’s going nowhere IMO. So many variables with the salary cap and other wise issues due to covid.


More for lulz than an actual point— Tatum and Mitchell keep heaping love at each other on social media:

Read on Twitter


Speak it into existence my man
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Re: Outsiders on the Celtics 

Post#58 » by SmartWentCrazy » Sat May 23, 2020 9:08 pm

big-shot-ROB wrote:Mitchell is not All-NBA for god's sake


And Jaylen isnt an all-star— im taking about potential, pretty clearly.
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Re: Outsiders on the Celtics 

Post#59 » by SmartWentCrazy » Sat May 23, 2020 9:10 pm

big-shot-ROB wrote:My problem with the whole Jaylen will get traded thing is not that I'm lying to myself thinking we will not trade him. Is the fact that you all have basically given up on him to the extent that him getting better is only a way to trade him for higher value.

There's no future in your minds where he flourishes in green.

Sure, I'd trade him for Doncic, Zion, Morant, Giannis, Harden, etc. But you can't just assume the only value he has now for the Celtics is as a tarde piece. Organizations shouldn't work like that.

And yeah, I'd have to think twice about it if Minny offered Towns straight up for him. But at this point you already know my take on bigs in general, specially the ones that are not plus contributors on the defensive end.


Im more probabilistically thinking. Jaylen could develop into a Jimmy Butler type player with less play making. Its just real low odds. Personally just think he’s an asset thats at the top of his value realistically and would love to buy a true potential stud at a depressed value by using him.
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Re: Outsiders on the Celtics 

Post#60 » by SmartWentCrazy » Sat May 23, 2020 9:18 pm

themoneyteam2 wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
themoneyteam2 wrote:
Smart and Brown for Mitchell seems like a loss for Boston, no?


Are you paying 1.25 for a dollar bill? Yes. But you can only play 5 guys and talent wins out at the end of the day.

The most valuable skill in the league is elite shot creation. Mitchell has that potential. He [and Tatum] would both improve their efficiencies immensely if they played with each other. Im also optimistic that the reduced offensive stress would cause his defensive effort to increase.

Trading an all-star and a solid starter for an all-nba caliber guy is a move I make every day.


That's fair and I see your reasoning. I would just personally rather have Tatum and Brown, two all star caliber wings, than Tatum and Mitchell at the 1 or 2. Just my preference for team building in having an elite wing duo.

I just think Brown is a lot more versatile than Mitchell is and having Kemba, Mitchell, Tatum doesn't provide the same versatility as they currently have. I think there is value in a guy like Brown who doesn't need all the touches to score 20 PPG efficiently.

I feel like the reason the Celtics are so good currently is because of their switchable guys and Smart coming in as 1st team all defense able to switch 1 through 4 basically and do all the dirty work.

Definitely see what your reasoning would be though. Mitchell is a stud and Ainge wanted to find a way to move into the first round to pick him. I just question if he would trade Smart and Brown away since that's very clearly a loss for Boston immediately.


I think Jaylens versatility is overstated. Hes a good defender but not the great one his reputation suggests. He gives too inconsistent an effort and isnt natural on that end— he clearly is thinking out there and will get burned at times. He’s not a stopper as he’s often portrayed.

And I’m worried his points are possibly reflective of shooting variance— he’s shooting a career best in 4 of his 5 shooting rangers and its reasonable to expect some regression next year.

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