Celtics just won their 18th Championship*

[jsimon]

Well I'm not even arguing about whether or not referees cheat/influence games. That's really a matter of opinion, isn't it?

I'm simply saying that Celtics fans should be more consistent and less narrow-minded. It seems that most here like to complain about the legitimacy of this league when your team loses, but say nothing when you win games. Donaghy's statements ring true when Orlando keeps the series alive, yet he become irrelevant when you won the series (as he predicted you would with the help of the referees). What's up with that?

Look everything you're saying might be true. Honestly, I haven't been on this board full time since we traded Jefferson. I just came back to vent my rage about the calls in this series and to see how everyone else felt.

Many Celtics fans think I'm wrong and agree with you. A few Bulls, Spurs, Suns fans came by and agreed with me and thought we got hosed in the 4th quarter. Look, I'll say this...

I think the officiating stunk in 5 games this series, and as the adjusted for intentionals free throw disparity, by my count 65, shows, I have a little bit of a point. But I don't think we would have won games 1 or 6 regardless of the calls. Game three is a coin flip. The first three quarters of game seven were essentially a draw. Absent the 4th quarter of game 7 and I'm not even here right now. Can you talk me out of my beliefs about those calls? Probably not. At the end of the day I think these were two evenly matched teams that if they played 50 times probably would have won 25 games each.

You won. It's over. I'll just have to live with whatever I feel about game 7 and there's nothing I can do about that. Enjoy the parade, seriously....

[Ad Hominem]

Seriously, don't fool yourself, there is NOTHING frustrating about being a Laker fan. I'm going to a parade Monday morning, what are you doing?

If you were really so cocksure in your belief that the best team won, then why are you trolling a Celtics message board defending your team's coronation to a cry baby loser Celtics fan like me?

I don't post much, lurking better. This thread title seemed like one to have a little fun in though. And don't feel so special, on a different board, a Laker board, I used to slam the crybabies there even harder. What you're missing in my comments is how much respect I have for the celtics right now. I give them a lot of credit for helping make the Lakers what they are, and honestly, I feel all the crying going on here is making a mockery of your guys. They weren't just great but historic. Because of the celtics the Lakers are going to be even tougher next year. The fans posting in agreement with this thread don't want to open their eyes to how hard the Lakers fought to win that game, instead trying to invalidate it in every way they can. If there was ever a thread that deserved to be trolled, it's this one, and if there was ever a day for a common lurker to be a troll, it's today. I'm happy to leave in peace though, with the only words that really answer this thread, and words from a celtic fan no less.

As Conan O'Brien tweeted today:

"I predicted the Celtics would win Game 7 and they did, by over 30 points. I watched it all on my special cable channel, Delude-O-Vision."

http://twitter.com/ConanOBrien/status/16503397080

[Hilltop]

I won't enjoy the parade any more than you would. I'm not a Laker fan.

And to clarify (since I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying), I am not disagreeing with you on the calls. I didn't say you weren't hosed, or that the Lakers weren't favored. I have no opinion on that.

If people think there was cheating going on, then fine. But be ready to accept what it entails. Saying that Stern manipulates games, extends serieses, and favors teams is tantamount to admitting that your titles (since he became commish at least) are worthless fodder. The problem I see is many here will only talk about Donaghy/cheating when the Celtics lose. You get what I mean?

[jsimon]

I feel all the crying going on here is making a mockery of your guys. They weren't just great but historic. Because of the celtics the Lakers are going to be even tougher next year. The fans posting in agreement with this thread don't want to open their eyes to how hard the Lakers fought to win that game, instead trying to invalidate it in every way they can.

I don't think my complaints about the refs has anything to do whatsoever with the 15 guys that suited up for the Celtics this season. Nor do they reflect the effort put forth by the 15 guys that suited up for the Lakers. My complaints are my own, and I'll both own up to them and stand by them 100%.

[jsimon]

If people think there was cheating going on, then fine. But be ready to accept what it entails. Saying that Stern manipulates games, extends serieses, and favors teams is tantamount to admitting that your titles (since he became commish at least) are worthless fodder. The problem I see is many here will only talk about Donaghy/cheating when the Celtics lose. You get what I mean?

This is exactly right, and why I feel so sick about all this. I have a hard time getting motivated for future Celtic's runs for this very reason. What happens if the refs favor my team over some lesser marketed team one day? Will I enjoy that, knowing that my team may have been the beneficiary of some shady officiating?

This is the point you guys who are ripping me seem to be missing. I want to get rid of the problem. Not just when it happens to my team, but all together. I am not silly enough to think this has only happened this once to my team and never to anyone else. It has got to be fixed for all of our sakes, otherwise what are we doing here?

[Hilltop]

If people think there was cheating going on, then fine. But be ready to accept what it entails. Saying that Stern manipulates games, extends serieses, and favors teams is tantamount to admitting that your titles (since he became commish at least) are worthless fodder. The problem I see is many here will only talk about Donaghy/cheating when the Celtics lose. You get what I mean?

This is exactly right, and why I feel so sick about all this. I have a hard time getting motivated for future Celtic's runs for this very reason. What happens if the refs favor my team over some lesser marketed team one day? Will I enjoy that, knowing that my team may have been the beneficiary of some shady officiating?

This is the point you guys who are ripping me seem to be missing. I want to get rid of the problem. Not just when it happens to my team, but all together. I am not silly enough to think this has only happened this once to my team and never to anyone else. It has got to be fixed for all of our sakes, otherwise what are we doing here?

Well then kudos to you for seeing the bigger picture. I just think that it's lost on so many others here. The double-standard being used is nauseating to say the least.

[jsimon]

Well then kudos to you for seeing the bigger picture. I just think that it's lost on so many others here. The double-standard being used is nauseating to say the least.

I think we are at kind of a weird standoff here. Both in this post and the one in the other thread you seem to agree that something isn't right in this league. But at the same time, some of us feel the Lakers just benefited from said something. You may disagree I guess, but you seem to agree that a problem exists on some level. Not sure where that leaves us.

[mr_sunshine]

http://deadspin.com/5567321/tim-donaghy ... s-a-series

According to this there were bad calls both ways until the 4th, which I have acknowledged. The game was fairly officiated until the 4th quarter - period. But when you look at the 4th...uhm what? Two blown calls for Boston - the one on Garnett which was close and the play where Ray clearly charged. It was still only a side out foul though. Also, if you look at the last call where he notes it's the correct call on Wallace, watch how Gasol shoves Rondo out of the way after the rebound and they don't call a foul before he even passes it to Kobe.

There's the proof all the Lakers fans have been asking for. I don't care if you believe what Donaghy says or not, those were the same calls I had mentioned were **** earlier.

[Hilltop]

Well then kudos to you for seeing the bigger picture. I just think that it's lost on so many others here. The double-standard being used is nauseating to say the least.

I think we are at kind of a weird standoff here. Both in this post and the one in the other thread you seem to agree that something isn't right in this league. But at the same time, some of us feel the Lakers just benefited from said something. You may disagree I guess, but you seem to agree that a problem exists on some level. Not sure where that leaves us.

It means we're not really disagreeing on much. I never got into the "who should've won the Finals" argument anyway.

I just pointed out how some homers here are the ultimate hypocrites.

[King Of The 4th]

Whether the Lakers got the benefit of the calls or not, Game 7 was winnable. No point in blaming the refs if our players could have won that game regardless.

[LAKERS_1981]

Great series Boston fans. You are one of the best fans in the NBA.
Yes iam a lakers fan but you can be proude of your team. I watch the Nets win in Boston and i thought your team was just going down hill fast. But Boston played hard and together in the playoffs and to win against Cleveland and Orlando like you did, well that is just wat great teams do.

[ConnorHenry]

And really, help me here, in 2008 when the celtics shot 19 more free-throws than the Lakers, 190 - 171, how many of you that are in full-tantrum mode now were making the argument that the Lakers were robbed in 2008? Show of hands? Anyone? --Ad Hominem

We're not talking just mere differences. A disparity of 19 is nothing. You're setting up a straw man to try to discredit our argument. You're trying to portray it like we feel that it must be 1-1 in foul attempts or it's unfair. We're not saying that.

What we're saying is heavily lopsided differences are fishy, especially when suddenly the Lakers are given 21 FTAs in the 4th qtr. of game 7 when they were struggling to get anything going. I'm sure if the shoe were on the other foot Laker fans would be bringing it up. They sure do with the chorus of "2008 was a fluke because we didn't have Bynum," which goes on to this day. "This would be a threepeat if Bynum wasn't hurt in '08" is something I'm hearing and seeing a lot. And Laker fans and even Phil whined about the reffing in Game 2 of this series. Don't try to portray Laker fans as holier than thou and Celt fans as whiny wackos. Gosh, I still hear to this day that 1984 was won because Boston cheated with the locker room conditions, dead spots on the parquet, and because of the heat. Only 1985 and '87 really count, in Laker minds; never mind that Boston was playing hurt in '87. (Which, yes, I know we Celt fans use as an excuse.)

Further, the Celts choked numerous games this year in the 4th. I didn't hear C fans blaming the refs. They blamed Doc and the players. We are questioning the reffing because of the timing, the size of the imbalance, and the fact that this is hardly the first time this has happened in the Lakers' favor when facing elimination. Also, clearly the NBA has a lot invested in Kobe and a winning Kobe is much more marketable. Look at all of this out-of-the-blue Kobe legacy, Kobe greater than Magic, and Kobe greater than MJ stuff the last two weeks.

And that's my last response to you because this is like trying to convince a jihadist that the West is good; a Dem that the GOP is good (and vice versa); or an atheist that this is a God. You ain't gonna dissuade me; I'm not going to change your view.

[jsimon]

We're not talking just mere differences. A disparity of 19 is nothing. You're setting up a straw man to try to discredit our argument. You're trying to portray it like we feel that it must be 1-1 in foul attempts or it's unfair. We're not saying that.

What we're saying is heavily lopsided differences are fishy, especially when suddenly the Lakers are given 21 FTAs in the 4th qtr. of game 7 when they were struggling to get anything going. I'm sure if the shoe were on the other foot Laker fans would be bringing it up. They sure do with the chorus of "2008 was a fluke because we didn't have Bynum," which goes on to this day. "This would be a threepeat if Bynum wasn't hurt in '08" is something I'm hearing and seeing a lot. And Laker fans and even Phil whined about the reffing in Game 2 of this series. Don't try to portray Laker fans as holier than thou and Celt fans as whiny wackos. Gosh, I still hear to this day that 1984 was won because Boston cheated with the locker room conditions, dead spots on the parquet, and because of the heat. Only 1985 and '87 really count, in Laker minds; never mind that Boston was playing hurt in '87. (Which, yes, I know we Celt fans use as an excuse.)

Further, the Celts choked numerous games this year in the 4th. I didn't hear C fans blaming the refs. They blamed Doc and the players. We are questioning the reffing because of the timing, the size of the imbalance, and the fact that this is hardly the first time this has happened in the Lakers' favor when facing elimination. Also, clearly the NBA has a lot invested in Kobe and a winning Kobe is much more marketable. Look at all of this out-of-the-blue Kobe legacy, Kobe greater than Magic, and Kobe greater than MJ stuff the last two weeks.

And that's my last response to you because this is like trying to convince a jihadist that the West is good; a Dem that the GOP is good (and vice versa); or an atheist that this is a God. You ain't gonna dissuade me; I'm not going to change your view.

Gospel truth. I'm done with this issue too. That 4th quarter will go down in history. Some people want to live in denial, some with blinders on, some are just content that their team won no matter what the circumstances.

You are absolutely right about all the blown leads for the C's this year, and many a lost playoff game and series in the past. Not once did I bring up the refs as the reason why we lost. Bad calls, of course I complained... But 4th quarter game 7 2010 NBA Finals will forever change the way I view the legitimacy of the NBA.

Despite all of the problems the C's were having rebounding and scoring, we still lead the whole game. Mostly because the Lakers couldn't get anything going either, even with all of their offensive rebounds keeping them in the game. Kobe was gagging, and the usual calls were not forthcoming from the refs. Enter the final 12 minutes. 19 free throws in 10 minutes, after 16 the previous three quarters combined. More free throws for the Lakers in the 4th quarter than the C's shot all game. You guys couldn't get anything going on offense, the refs tried to let you win legit, but you just couldn't do it. So the refs came along and started calling touch fouls and questionable calls that they hadn't been calling all game. And they only did that for the Lakers, the C's still got the silent treatment. The refs carried you to the title and everyone but those wearing purple and gold know it.

Your rebounding advantage was offset by your terrible shooting. Ray Allen's off night was offset by Kobe's off night. The calls were close going into the fourth, 16-11 FTA. Then 21-6 free throws and you guys get a free pass to the title. Coronation, not Championship.

First time I have ever complained about the officials changing the outcome of a game. Maybe my last.

[jsimon]

Also, clearly the NBA has a lot invested in Kobe and a winning Kobe is much more marketable. Look at all of this out-of-the-blue Kobe legacy, Kobe greater than Magic, and Kobe greater than MJ stuff the last two weeks.

For Christ's sake they did a halftime piece in game seven about Kobe's legacy!!! What a joke of a Finals.

Now I'm done.

[Sedale Threatt]

http://deadspin.com/5567321/tim-donaghy-on-game-7-how-the-nba-influences-a-series

According to this there were bad calls both ways until the 4th, which I have acknowledged. The game was fairly officiated until the 4th quarter - period. But when you look at the 4th...uhm what? Two blown calls for Boston - the one on Garnett which was close and the play where Ray clearly charged. It was still only a side out foul though. Also, if you look at the last call where he notes it's the correct call on Wallace, watch how Gasol shoves Rondo out of the way after the rebound and they don't call a foul before he even passes it to Kobe.

There's the proof all the Lakers fans have been asking for. I don't care if you believe what Donaghy says or not, those were the same calls I had mentioned were **** earlier.

Interestingly, if you tally his assessment -- which I did very casually -- there were eight bad/missed calls that benefited Boston, and five that benefited the Lakers through the first three quarters. Then in the fourth, you get a whopping 5-2 advantage for L.A. Add it all up, and it's dead-ass even.

So does this really constitute proof? Especially when you consider the source?

[jsimon]

It's not just about blown calls or missed calls or bad calls... it's about the frequency with which calls are made. Through three quarters of game 7, whatever calls were made - good, bad or ugly - only resulted in 16 free throws for the Lakers and 11 for the Celtics. Not too bad. In the 4th quarter however, there was an explosion of calls - good, bad, or otherwise - that resulted in 21 free throws for the Lakers and 6 for the Celtics.

"Let 'em play" officiating for three quarters of basketball, both teams struggling to put points on the board, then whistle-palooza in the 4th quarter with the majority of charity stripe scoring going to the Lake Show.

You could easily make the argument that a foul is committed on every play in the NBA, so the refs have to use discretion. Some use better discretion than others. In game 7 the Lakers shot a free throw every 135 seconds of play in the first three quarters, the Celtics every 196 seconds of play. In the 4th., the Lakers shot a free throw every 34 seconds of play, the Celtics every 120 seconds of play.

This is the crux of the problem, and why people like me believe the refs carried the Lakers to a title.

[Sedale Threatt]

I don't disagree. That said, the big beef I always have in the "screwed by refs" debate is that the aggrieved party never wants to look at the calls that went their way, or the entire game as a whole.

Case in point -- Donaghy's rundown (which I don't take for gospel, by the way) jibes with a sequence that bothered me during the game. Pierce draws a patented flop 25 feet from the basket -- the antithesis of "letting them play" in my opinion -- to earn two foul shots, after which Allen got a piece of Kobe on a 3-point attempt.

Assuming he makes all three, they're only down 38-37 instead of 40-34 -- a five-point swing right there. But again, nobody's ever interested in going back through the entire game.

[Sedale Threatt]

At any rate, the only reason I posted was to illustrate that, if you actually read Donaghy's piece, it doesn't really indicate a significant advantage one way or the other. Which is amusing, because the poster who shared the link seems to think it does, as does Donaghy himself with the tone of his lead.

I'm not going to take the time to do so -- the game's over, and my team won, so I don't really care -- but it would be interesting to reconstruct the game based on his observations.

Probably tough to do so, as you impact individual foul totals, and when a team gets into the bonus, and all of that. And that's not even getting into the difficulty of coming up with a consensus on certain calls. Show people a close charge/block, and five will see it one way and five the others.

No matter what, I suspect if one were to take an honest, unbiased look at things -- a high school official who doesn't care about the NBA, for example -- it wouldn't add up to this epic screw job some seem to believe took place.

[jsimon]

I don't disagree. That said, the big beef I always have in the "screwed by refs" debate is that the aggrieved party never wants to look at the calls that went their way, or the entire game as a whole.

Case in point -- Donaghy's rundown (which I don't take for gospel, by the way) jibes with a sequence that bothered me during the game. Pierce draws a patented flop 25 feet from the basket -- the antithesis of "letting them play" in my opinion -- to earn two foul shots, after which Allen got a piece of Kobe on a 3-point attempt.

Assuming he makes all three, they're only down 38-37 instead of 40-34 -- a five-point swing right there. But again, nobody's ever interested in going back through the entire game.

I just gave you the breakdown of frequency of free throws for the entire game as a whole. Not on the merits of each call, but on the number of calls made. I did this because, again, I think there could be a call made - good or bad - on every play in the game. Plus everyone always says "there were blown calls for both teams, get over it!" They're right, but what was the frequency of those calls?

This is a big reason why I am a believer in total free throw attempts when styles of play are similar.

[jsimon]

At any rate, the only reason I posted was to illustrate that, if you actually read Donaghy's piece, it doesn't really indicate a significant advantage one way or the other. Which is amusing, because the poster who shared the link seems to think it does, as does Donaghy himself with the tone of his lead.

I'm not going to take the time to do so -- the game's over, and my team won, so I don't really care -- but it would be interesting to reconstruct the game based on his observations.

Probably tough to do so, as you impact individual foul totals, and when a team gets into the bonus, and all of that. And that's not even getting into the difficulty of coming up with a consensus on certain calls. Show people a close charge/block, and five will see it one way and five the others.

No matter what, I suspect if one were to take an honest, unbiased look at things -- a high school official who doesn't care about the NBA, for example -- it wouldn't add up to this epic screw job some seem to believe took place.

No disrespect, you seem like a civil guy, but your not really addressing the whole crux of what I'm saying about the frequency of calls made for three quarters, then the explosion of calls in the 4th., mostly for the Lakers. You still seem fixated on the quality of each call.